Stosh

Alas, I think this is a fantastic tree to climb, but for the most part a way too daunting of a task. I've been in the youth business for 40+ years, 30+ in Scouting. I got my youth work training through college credits, church youth groups and now scouting. I got my ARC First Aid training through work. Same for CPR. I got my EMT-A training through volunteering for and establishing an ambulance/rescue squad in a small town and working as a volunteer for a government ambulance service. I got most of my camping experience from personal camping throughout the country. I got my Life Saving training through the ARC. How does one put 60 years of experience into a couple of weekends worth of training? I know when to go, I know when not to go. I know my limits and I know the limits of my boys. I have have Tornado Watch training many times while living in the middle of Tornado Alley. My situation is unique and each concurrent generation spends less and less time gathering experience in the outdoor setting especially in the areas of challenging activities pertaining to the types of things noted as high adventure. Is there such a thing as adequate training for someone who thinks fishing out of a bass boat, deer hunting once a year for a week and camping at the KOA qualifies them as a potential SM even if they have Eagle marked on their registration form? Good topic.

If I were the SM, the COR or the CC, I'd be looking for two new ASM's. There is nothing that says these two with their personal vendetta against a handicapped child is fit to serve in the capacity they are presently. If anyone should be asked to have their registration pulled, it would be these two. There's no place in scouting for this kind of "leadership".

Who's to foot the bill on these training sessions. I do know that the ARC First Aid is kinda pricey as is Wilderness FA. The ARC First Aid needs to be updated every 2 years and CPR every year. Over the course of 7 years of going through the program with son, that could get overwhelming if not a turn off for a lot of ify volunteers in the first place. The idea is great, but the $$ hurdle will need to be addressed before it gets much traction. Then one can add the WB $$'s and all of this before one even sets foot in the woods.??? What are the options at this point for this issue?

I'm not even sure from the article if the troop was involved at all. Individuals from the troop were and the troop was the original inspiration, but there's nothing in the article that indicates this was a troop effort at fundraising. The last time I heard what the minimum requirement was it was $900. I must be getting old. I guess I had to file every year because I always made more than the minimum and/or wanted my refund.

I had a similar experience as a kid with scouting and when I got back into scouting as an adult, I promised myself I would never do a kid what the adults did to me and my buddies. After 4 years one would think that most boys should have progressed further than 2nd Class. Oh, I did have one MB, too.

Yes, the article is rather vague, but I drew the assumption from the fact that he hired his sisters to help out with the orders and I assume they made money on the deal, so why wouldn't his buddies from the troop also be hired so they could earn some $$ for camp. Yes, it's an assumption but not a stretch. He gave tithes, to missions, saved some and kept some for spending money. Nowhere does it say he donated anything to the troop, so the troop's involvement in this was non-existent Not even as a recipient of funds as a donation. It's going to be fun trying to figure out a tax filing for this boy because as long as he only has income in a certain amount does he even have to file no matter how the money was raised. I no longer know what that amount might be, but there was no withholding taken out for him to have to claim for a refund.

I think @@qwazse sums it up when he emphasizes it's not what is being sold, but how it's being sold. If the troop is working as a whole to promote the sales, then it's a fundraiser, but if the boys are working outside the troop then it's an issue of income generation FOR THE BOYS, not the troop. I have never heard it a council policy if a bunch of boys got together to mow lawns to make money for camp that it automatically become a troop fundraiser. After all the boys are expecting personal gain, not money for the troop's general funds. There's no question that this is going to be an IRS issue as it pertains to the income of the boy. After all, the boy can decide to spend the extra money on camping gear, school books, new clothes or help his buddies get to camp. The Troop or CO have no say so whatsoever in how that plays out and most certainly, the Council has no say so.

Not everyone has the luxury of having parents well enough off that they can sit back and have the $$'s handed to them for whatever fun project they happened to cotton to at that moment. I was out shoveling walks, mowing lawns, and spading gardens long before I got into scouting. My parents did purchase a Cub Scout uniform for me, but everything else related to Scouting, including fees, gear, and uniform came out of my expenses. A Scout is thrifty, he pays his own way. That's a Law that is neglected more than any of the others. I went off to college in 1968 with $4500 in the bank and I graduated seminary in 1977, $1500 in debt. Of course during that time, I owned two cars, one used and one new. When I couldn't afford to continue on, I would drop out, work full time until I could get back at it again. Well, today, parents can't afford scouting. Well 50 years ago, my parents couldn't either, but I was a scout anyway, on MY DIME. I have Zero Tolerance for the myriad of excuses scouts have for not getting off their butts and working their way in life. At age 12 in many countries one is considered an adult, might be married and have kids on the way. In the American culture, being 12 means you have at least 20 years of video games before one has to start thinking about contributing productively to the world in which one lives.... or at least move out of the parent's basement....

This is why businesses do outside audits of such things as books and inventories. It just keeps things honest.

If the boy is simply selling hand made items, they don't need to report anything to council. If the boys were going out into the neighborhoods and mowing lawns, they wouldn't need to tell council either. This is not a fundraiser, it is a small entrepreneurial business that in fact be taken as income of which when donated to a troop for general funding of summer camp should just about offset any income on his taxes.

I totally agree, there's no "one-size-fits-all" when it comes to any kid. You are correct however, that special needs kids don't react the way one would normally expect them to and this in itself totally throws off most adults that don't have special needs children. Those of us who do, understand at a different level.

I have no doubt that when people talk about special needs kids, there's a potpourri of different conditions and even within those conditions an infinite number of variances that come with the situation. But then that could be said about any kid on the block special needs or not. We have the garden variety of physical conditions, mental conditions, emotional conditions, environmental conditions, social conditions, etc. etc. and the list goes on and on. I don't care how much training one has, I don't care how much parent involvement is involved, I don't care how much medical considerations have to be maintained, I don't care how much effort it is going to take to make it successful for the boy. My solution to this whole issue? As SM, "Take care of your boys." It's been my philosophy for my boys, my adults and myself. As long as one cares about the success of any of their boys, the work-arounds and problem solving will happen. When Joe showed up at a meeting, he had a scoutbook from way back in his hands. His uniform was a mess, his "assistant" accompanied him from the institution he was living in. He was 34 years of age and had special dispensation from BSA to continue working as a Scout. Did I mention he would walk into a room with the biggest grin on his face and say hi to everyone he met along with a proper Boy Scout handshake. He would then sit down with the boys and remain silent for the rest of the meeting. I did a SMC right away and asked him where he would like help with his program. He was LIFE rank and wanted to work on his Eagle. No problem, we work on his Eagle. Every week, he would come having accomplished nothing, but every week we talked about it and made plans. He just loved scouting and that probably the high point of his week was the meeting. He could never attend any other activities because of his restrictions. So what. I really liked Joe. He as a Real Scout and hopefully some day he'll be a Real Eagle. Was it a disruption to have him around? Yep. Was it worth it to have him around? Yep, the kids really liked him.

Having worked in a council office, I know how important making quotas are. Obviously one's upward mobility and merit pay increases are directly linked to such arcane measurements. So, along with the practices in place and the human tendency to answer the call to temptation, it is only natural that corruption can easily follow. Gee, isn't this how government works? OMG, non-profits like the United Way have had these same issues! The local church down the street had to just let their pastor go for questionable reasons? And who says graft and corruption are restricted to just the big cities, big government and big business!!!! Wake up and smell the coffee. Once reality sets in, you will at least know what your dealing with, but don't be surprised it isn't as idealistic as you think it should be.

@ That's not necessarily a black and white issue. I find that these kids are exposed to these ADHD, Asperger's and autistic kids all day long at school and probably have a pretty good idea what to expect from them. They might see these kids for 4 - 5 hours a day whereas the SM and other adults see them for an hour or two in a far less restrictive environment making it a lot more uncertain. I guess I would rely a bit on my scouts to keep the peace more than an unknown or lesser know adult trying to step in and deal with issues. These kids rely a lot on familiarity and known situations to feel comfortable. Put them in a new environment with new adults and new situations, they may turn to familiar people they know from school to help them out. Obviously each case, each scout, each troop, each other adults all play into the process, but I would turn to my scouts first to see what they can do to navigate the situation simply because they may already know more about what's going on that I do.

Naw! that would be to revealing. If BSA would listen more carefully, and that's difficult because of a lot of bias rantings that go along with it, but really listen to the concerns of the membership, they just might be able to pull things together. If someone can actually figure out how to take away every excuse for leaving, they couldn't leave.

Adding to what @ says is the BSA policies which have nothing to do with IRS or tax laws on non-profit organizations. There's nothing I know if in the IRS Code that states popcorn sales can't start before such and such a date and must end on a date 30 days later. That's BSA. They don't want people out soliciting big bucks for a unit that would jeopardize the efforts of councils going out and getting money for themselves.

One also has to take into consideration an out-of-the-box possibility as to why the numbers are down. Just because the numbers are down is not necessarily reflective of losing members, but maybe just not taking on as many members as before. Our council's membership push has gotten rather feeble over the past few years. A token gesture in Cub Scouts, nothing for Boy Scouts, and Venturing his just an attempt to retain older scouts and take on a few female friends. None of which really will prop up the numbers.

Bugling is one of the most underrated POR's on the list. So many troops have no idea what potential it has to make things nice for the troop. A number of years back I met two buglers from different troops put on quite a show for the weekend. Knowing what a bugle is meant for I totally appreciated what they were up to. Friday I heard one bugler give Mess Call to notify his troop was ready for Cracker Barrel. That was kinda neat, but then I heard the other bugler give a Ditty and then Mess Call. That told the first bugler there were going to be two buglers in camp. So the first bugler gave his Ditty in return. The Ditty is a short 2-3, maybe 4 note identification signal to let the boys know which bugler is giving a Call. A while later, no Ditty, but Officer's Call to let the SPL's know where the SPL meeting was going to be, just follow the bugler's location. SPL's who didn't know Officer's Call seemed to be the ones that showed up late if at all. That night I heard a Ditty from one of the two buglers, just the Ditty. Then the other bugler gave his Ditty. They were now ready. The first bugler played Taps and the second bugler echoed. The next morning, Ditty #1, Ditty #2, pause, Long note and then the two buglers played Reveille together from two different locations. Before the day was over, they got in Assembly, To the Colors, Fatigue Call and Mess Calls. Sunday morning even had Church Call. There were a few troops that had learned the calls but didn't have a bugler so they were kinda up on it, but those troops without buglers and didn't know the calls were at a disadvantage. It was worth the weekend just to listen to these two guys who really knew their stuff. It pays to do out-of-council camporees every now and then to see how the other half lives.

@@Eagledad While I'm not anti-women, nor am I anti-homosexual, it does change the dynamics of what was once a boy to manhood progression program. It does, however, beg the question, "What then IS the program?" One can't change course without knowing what the new destination is going to be. Oh? Half the people don't want to go that direction. Okay, that's just the way life is. Now to change course, change dynamics and then expect everything to basically stay the same is not even a realistic expectation. Even as a child, I remember how different it was when we hung out with our Dad and his friends and when we hung out with our Mom and her friends. Of course it was always the best when we just hung out with our buddies. That, dynamic in BSA, has also changed. Now one needs to babysit boys up until they are 18 years of age. I have no wonderment when it comes to trying to explain why the numbers are down.

When I used the term "flash in the pan" I wasn't using it as a long term issue, It was a huge, overblown media blitz intended to focus damage on an organization. From experience with these other programs, the liberal bias knows how effective such tactics are. This is why Heritage Girls and Trail's Edge are becoming so popular. They are the traditional forms that rebounded off the media blitzes. Yes we have to live with the residual debris of such efforts and the boys always have the opportunity to choose a troop with a male SM if they wish. My tenure in the second troop I was involved with lasted about 3-4 years. When the female CC took over the first order of business for her was to remove me as SM. It took a couple of SM's to cycle through, but they now have a female SM with about 1/3rd the number of scouts. I have a female ASM now who has asked to be my ASM so as to learn how the Boy-Led, Patrol-Method under my way of doing things works. She is also the District Commissioner and wants to understand so as to promote it among the other troops in the district. She is her on worst enemy when it comes to "helping" out. Her 'MOM" gene seems to take over and she apologizes many times because she is still learning how to read herself as she interacts or shouldn't interact with the boys. I hope this doesn't come off sounding biased against women and homosexuals, it's just that the dynamics of these groups is rather counter-intuitive to a BOY Scout program that is supposed to be nurturing and developing male characteristics in our young boys. Of course if that is NOT what you wish to be doing, BSA has chosen the correct course of action.

Within the past few years our council has been doing a brief cross-over ceremony at Camporees. It was intended for the new boys to have an opportunity to have a ceremony for those that didn't get one. It's still a rather piece-meal operation in that one of our feeder Packs does a cross-over just for the Webelos II boys as they exit the program. A Boy Scout troop does it to "welcome" in the new guys, and some don't do anything and just wait for the camporee cross-over. I did notice that the Packs that cross-over as an exit strategy do not have boys actually crossing over to anything. I have seen it were the boys cross over the bridge only to go sit down with their parents. Yes, we have the necker and book, but that's just a waste of resources because they never join the troop afterwards. If the boys cross-over INTO the troop, they are making a stronger commitment to the Boy Scout program. Those waiting for the camporees have boys that are already active making the cross-over. Because of this general observation, I do like the cross-over in the hands of the troops and even the district at the camporees. It's really nice to have the big campfire as the backdrop for the cross-over.

The gay issue is the media child du jour. Female leadership was another flash in the pan. Co-ed Exploring, etc, these issues come and go all the time and barely make a blip on the radar. I do think you hit on a major issue that we've discussed before, The current parents do not have either a background in Scouting or even camping in general. If they do go "camping" it's at a KOA where there's a pool, game room, and grocery store. I noticed this problem back in the 1990's when I was doing the Webelos outdoor training. People would show up to the event with a tent and sleeping bag in the box with the Walmart receipt dated the same day. They had no idea what it was like to camp, let alone take a group of boys out into the woods for an over-night outing. When I came into scouting as a scouter, I had many, many years of camping experience, I had scouting experience as a youth, I had extensive experience working with youth, and the training I got as a new leader was okay, definitely not memorable. WB was pretty much the same thing. Kinda fun, but that's about all I remember. So how does one recruit adults and boys who only have a cursory understanding of the program and we expect them to jump in gung-ho and take the reins? If someone asked you to be the baseball coach, you'd have a pretty good idea of what to do. Every soccer mom could do an adequate job of coaching soccer, but camping? Last fall the Mrs. and I went to a Wisconsin state park where I spent many weekends camping as a child. The fall colors were just coming in. We first drove though the original camping area and it didn't look anything like I remember. The massive units with the water, sewer and electrical hookups were crammed in rather tightly. We then drove out to the "new loop" area that was the nature trail when I was kid. Nice paved road, nice sites, a bit further apart, no water, no sewer, no electricity and no campers. The Mrs. and I had a fantastic time. For those of you who are married to a spouse that needs a Pace Arrow or Winnebago to "camp" in, my step-kids all chipped in for the Mrs.'s Christmas gift and it was a brand new 4-man tent so we'd have a bit more room than the old 2-man tent. Now, she does go on an occasional activity with the boys, but she has more qualifications to be a scouter volunteer without any training than most parents today having taken training up to the WB level. Generational interests have changed.

Pee Wee Harris isn't such a stretch, along with Westy Martin, Mark Gilmore, Tom Slade, Roy Blakeley, Skinny McCord, and Wigwag Wiegan all comprise the literary achievement of a Percy Keese Fitzhugh who wrote some great stories about how scouting played out in the early scouting movement. It would be interesting to know about Percy Keese Fitzhugh and get an insight into the 25 year literary career of this man. After all his Pee Wee Harris legacy is still there today. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Percy_Keese_Fitzhugh I'm thinking the dork factor was introduced when the Boy Scout was exemplified by a donkey named Pedro. That was a marketing disaster.

I, too, like the Arrow of Light and Blue-Gold separated, not only for the length issue, but for the message it portrays. Too often the Blue-Golds end up being more of something for the Webelos II boys to the exclusion of the other boy's. I know it's heresy, but the Arrow of Light is bad enough, but couple that with the cross-over at Blue-Gold and you have an even bigger separation going on. If I was given the responsibility to do a Blue-Gold, it would be a big pot luck, lots of games, a few prizes maybe a magician or some sort of entertainment, maybe a skit or two and that's it. Just a family fun event for all the boys. The Arrow of Light, the cross-over and other Webelos II specific issues can be held as a separate celebration just for those families. Again, that can be a big pot luck, but it would be the Webelos II families and the Boy Scout families getting together to really focus in on just their boys' transition into the Boy Scout program. With a lot of Blue-Golds going on in February or early March, the Webelos II graduation actually cuts the second year short. Now the Boy Scouts really like picking up the Webelos boys early because it gives them time to get them ready for summer camp. Well, that's a Boy Scout issue and shouldn't be dictating the Cub program schedule. And as a caveat to that, while it does allow the Boy Scouts the needed time to get ready for summer camp, it also opens up the lead time for the boys to get ready for summer sports as well. Kind of a pick your poison type of thing. So the boys only have a couple of weeks to get ready for summer camp? So, work with the Webelos II den leaders and coordinate it as part of a cooperative transition. That way the Boy Scouts get a chance to look over the new Webelos and their parents and the Webelos II leaders get a good view of what the troop can do to get their boys up to speed.

Okay, I can buy into that, the competition dynamic has gotten way out of hand, even see it prevalent in politics as well as sports. Keeping up with the Jones on a social level also applies. So where does that leave us with scouting which still retains the competition thingy for fun. Except for the Eagle Mill thingy, and of course the resume and job application win situation. Okay, Scouting has gotten beyond it's competition roots too. Instead of building men of good character have we bought into the idea of building winners? I see an edge in Scouting if they were to promote and actually deliver on the leadership aspect instead of the competition dynamic. After all, the coach is the real winner, all the players, even those on the bench and the people in the stands are winners only by proxy. This from the guy that went back and forth in Little League between first base and pitching and could outrun all but one person in my school for cross-country? Yeah, I could do it but I didn't like sports at all. Except for the ringer patrols at camporee that need to win-at-all-cost, should we be encouraging such competition in scouting? I do know the Madison Scouts Drum and Bugle Corps takes competition to the national level and does rather well. But that's more of an exception rather than a rule of Scouting.