Stosh

One does not "vote" on a poll, they give an opinion. One votes on a ballot. A poll only gives an opinion for others to consider, a ballot gives a choice which mandates an outcome. Too often we confuse this issue thinking that by answering a poll we are giving any weight to the final decision. It does not.

I started camping when I was 4 years old. Been there, done that. I hope I can keep doing it forever.... That excuse doesn't hold water with me. Sorry.

Apples and oranges.... a Cub Scout uniform is not a Boy Scout uniform. I would not apply "jambo" patches to a Cub Scout uniform, nor would I put a Cub Scout patch on a Boy Scout uniform. The grey area lies with the Webelos uniform being remarkably like the Boy Scout uniform. However, one wears Cub bling on it and takes it all off when he crosses over to Boy Scouts with the exception of the religious knot and AOL if earned and the yellow/orange service stars earned as a Cub. The Universal Scouting patch and council patch also stay. I don't know why the female Cub uniform is still in use. It would make it easier if they would wear the general uniform for all scouters. However, with that being said, if they wish to wear the legacy uniforms, wear them with the legacy patches.

Okay, stand back and look at the box AND what's not in it. What's not in the discussion is why are we setting these standards. They are the minimum expectation necessary to function in an outdoor setting. All these discussions center around "studying for the test" instead of learning the subject matter so that someday these things might come in handy. Be prepared meas more than getting ready to get a check box marked off so that one can win the Eagle prize at the end of the day.

Interesting question. As I have said before, the boys make the decisions, not the SM As "cynical" as I am, I still dragged a truck load of gear out to the last camporee the boys attended because it sounded interesting to them. The way it was run, they had a good time. They had competitions, but they weren't the typical patrol vs. patrol. They did the North/South thingy. I had all my equipment and the boys thought my little presentation was well done and I got a lot of thanks from boys from the various units. This camporee was held by a different district than the one we belong to. So, I too am curious as to why one would think the cynicism of the SM has anything to do with the program. I go where my boys want to go and if necessary, or if I have the opportunity to make it better once we get there, pitch in. If not the boys will choose a different option next time. This time the opted out of the fall camporee, nothing sounded like fun. So we went in the rain fishing. It was an all day Friday and Saturday rain. The boys caught fish, they learned how to fillet and cook them and they had a great time in spite of the rain. So if the boys would rather go fishing than attend a camporee, what, other than adults, are stopping them?

I have always viewed "boy-led" has creating opportunities for boys, not taking them away. Sometimes these opportunities are opportunities to learn, sometimes lead. I am involved in the learning. I teach, but I will not do it for them because that cheats them out of an opportunity to lead. I just went through a discussion about 6 months ago when the boys were learning their knots. I showed them how to tie them, then let them have at it to learn. I did give out the caveat that there will come a time when we get to camp, it's going to be dark, it's going to be raining, and the quicker you can do the knots the quicker you can get the tents up and your gear kept dry. No one believed me at the time. Well about a month ago, BINGO, it was late, it was dark and it wasn't just raining, it was pouring. Everyone was soaked and the weekend hadn't started. They struggled, they cried, they helped each other and finally one boy came to me and said, is this the lesson on knots? Yep. Well last Sunday evening we were doing training on First Aid and the boys were goofing off. I told them there's going to be a time when you will really need to know this or someone you care about is going to suffer or even die. The PL asked, "when that time comes will it be dark and raining?" I told him if it isn't you're going to feel that way anyway. They paid attention and worked seriously for the next hour on the training processes. One of the major hurdles in teaching leadership is to give full authority to the boys. This is not something many adults are willing to do. Failure is not an acceptable outcome in our society. Yet, in the BSA program, it is supposed to be a time where failure is one of the necessary stepping stones to leadership. For those who are too afraid to fail, they will never become even mediocre leaders. In order to be boy-led, one needs boy leaders first.

I personally don't "look for anything" in a summer camp. I don't select it, the boys do. Every year they can go to any summer camp they wish. Last year the boys went to Camp Freeland Leslie and had a great time so I was told. I was unable to attend. Where they are going next year, I don't know. They haven't told me yet.

I'm not against rigged competitions, I'm against rigged teams in the competition. Struggling new troops or dying troops do not have the luxury of 80 scouts of mixed aged patrols. The game is already unfair and the boys haven't even started. I send my NSP boys to camporees and have no expectations they have to compete, they are there to learn how the process works. Nothing worse than trying their best and ending up last. It's not fair to the new boys and they simply decide to go it alone and have more fun learning on their own at their own pace.

The name of the game is to support the leadership of the boys, not take over. A constant presence always leaves the back door open to the fledgling new leader, knowing that any time he can bail onto the expertise of the adults rather than take the next step of leadership one his own. Every time a boy pushes his envelop, he grows stronger in his leadership portfolio. Every time he bails, he retards his progress. Worse yet having an adult step in and push him aside to "make it work", thereby robbing the boy of his opportunity.

Years of experience varies from one person to the next even though they have the same number of years. I agree with @blw2 on this. After 45+ years of working with youth, I do not approach the subject the same as I did in the beginning. There are those out there, on the other hand, that have not been able to change and adapt along the way. Obviously their experience with the subject is not the same as mine. For example I approach my work with co-ed church groups far differently than I do with co-ed community based groups, and even differently with single-sex Boy Scouts. They all have different programs, aims, etc. that dictate an amount of flexibility on my part to adapt to their needs. If I were to keep on with the co-ed BSA, I have no idea what to expect from the changes necessary, and at my age I have very little interest in finding out. Sure I can work within the new system, but the question remains, do I want to start all over, or just find some other avenues that I am already comfortable with. The jury is still out on that.

I have found out over the years that cheese sandwiches are a bit more healthy than cheese sandwiches fried/burnt in butter. Most nutritionists will agree.

Welcome to the forum! Go back to the Green Bar Bill materials from the 40's and 50's if one wishes to have an idea of what the Patrol Method is all about. Today's BSA has very little, if anything, of use on that program. If you do come up with something on your own, share it on this forum, it is much needed. Just because we put a PL patch on a boy's uniform does not make the program boy-led.

It all depends on what help is being given. Helping them manage the task by stepping in or helping them develop leadership on their own by NOT stepping in. An adult can always help when it comes to managing a task, but there is never any room for an adult to step in to help lead when it is leadership one is trying to convey to the scouts.

I guess there are always going to be those who use a screwdriver as a pry bar, or a hammer to pound in screws. A tool (or program) is designed to do a certain function (BOY scouts), but I'm sure there are those that will get some mileage out of pounding screws. If I was a hammer and was tasked with pounding nails, I could get really good at doing what I'm supposed to be doing. However, if the boss hands me screws and expects me to do the same job, it'll work, but not as well. I work with both same-sex youth groups and co-ed youth groups. They are hardly the same thing. Many different variants. The Boy Scout program is not designed for co-ed, never has been, that's why Exploring and Venturing struggle. So, the handwriting on the wall says, Cubs and Boy Scouts will struggle, too. Sure, a screw that has been pounded in with a hammer will work, but never as good as one that has been driven in with a screwdriver.

I had one boy not be able to do the swim test in the lake because the weeds freaked him out. I sure hope he never dumps his canoe or tips his small boat/sail boat anytime soon.

During WW II the sailors were taught to jump into the water with the heel of the hand below the chin and fingers over the nose. Works when getting off the sinking boat from 40'-50' above the water. Of course debris and burning oil were lesson #2.

That'll work too. Younger boys have all the first aid equipment handy, the older boys no equipment, make do with what they have on them. Younger boys get all the matches they want, older boys, no matches...now make a fire. Yep, I like the idea.

The only really fair competition is based on an individual's skill level. Varsity football players do not compete with middle school teams. The competitions need to be a legitimate playing field. Scouts vs. Scouts, TF vs. TF, 2C vs. 2C, etc and each boy gets a score. Then the scores are weighted for the patrol. Scouts get an extra 7 points, TF 6, 2C 5, etc. Then those who have less than 8 boys get extra points for them. That way the smaller patrols get weighted points. Patrols over 8 boys get deductions for having too many, those scores are weighted too. If they leave out a Scout, -7 points, TF, -6 points, etc. A simple spreadsheet could handle this scoring process rather quickly. This way less experienced scouts in a small patrol will receive the most bonus points. Otherwise, live with the ringers and leave fairness out of the equation. The boys quickly figure out the games rigged and then they quit. The only ones that really enjoy the rigged games are the ringer patrols that win all the prizes at the campfires and then the adults start wondering why no one shows up for camporees. I have been told our district camporees have 3-4 troops when the camporees are held.

Not many boys are brave enough to challenge the authority of the adults in an adult-led troop. It has to be initiated by the adults...all of them. I don't know of many adults that are really willing to risk doing that as it's supposed to be done.

My boys sign up as patrols. I do have age-layered patrols. The NSP boys and most of the regular patrols do fine with the camporees, but the older boys do their own thing having been burned out on camporees.

We did this process a couple of years past when one of our ASM's offered up AOL training for any boy that wished to make sure they got it. Boys from 3 different packs attended. Some stayed with us, others went to other troops. The reason for this was that we heard that the Webelos leaders weren't interested or were burned out at the prospect of pushing through until the end. One of the packs didn't even have den meetings, only pack meetings! A lot of the problems with adult-led units is that it is assumed that the adults will actually lead. When they don't the boys suffer.

It's kinda miraculous to actually identify the problem. How many boys get the chance to tell the SM what's really going on and have him/her LISTEN. Adults are not there to DO scouting for the boys, they are there to LISTEN so the boys can do the scouting.

How many camporees register troops and how many register patrols? Then how many troops camp together and how many patrols are spread out among the other patrols (it's a real buzz kill for those units that rely on troop trailers and troop meals. Also, when the troops with mixed age patrols try and reorganize into ringer patrols the morning of the camporee for the competitions, it makes the task a bit more difficult and obvious to everyone. We all talk about the units being boy-led, shouldn't the districts be the one in the lead promoting it?

People will invest time into these kinds of processes only if they really are interested in the results. With the recent major changes in the Scout program, it is obvious just how interested they really were in finding out.

Welcome to the forum! I used to be a Beaver, a good ol' Beaver, too. My ticket involved the Webelos transition to Boy Scouts and I worked 2 years on the ticket. The result was the den stayed together and worked as boy-led throughout their career in an adult-led unit demonstrating and making changes as they progressed through the ranks. All Eagled. My CoH's are and have been run by the boys, with each PL MCing a portion of the program and awarding the boys in their patrol. If a PL was to receive an award, it was presented by another PL. For the brief time we had 4 patrols and an SPL. The SPL assisted the PL's during the CoH, but did not MC. PL's are the highest ranking officer in my troops, they run the show.