Stosh

So that would be the mathematical equivalent of losing twice that number in the time span of 6-7 years. I would think BSA would be focusing in on INCREASING membership instead of taking the chance and doubling down on the losses.

If a group is marching as a color guard there should be only one US flag. The multiple non-US flags means the one US flag goes out front and the Loser SM should not be leading the color guard. There are so many things wrong with the picture other than scouts participating in a political parade. The one big no-no I see all the time is the specific forbidden practice of horizontal display of the flag. This is just as bad as having it on the ground. The flag should be upright and flying free. People, the US Flag Code is not that hard to find on the internet, just Google it and then teach your boys what is respectful and what isn't. @@CalicoPenn and yes, according to the US Flag Code, the scouts in the second photo are no more knowledgeable than those in the first photo. I see it as the blind leading the blind and pencil whipping an "easy" requirement for T-FC. Maybe if the Instructors were actually knowledgeable in their information we wouldn't have so many Paper Eagles out there. By the way, some of my stickler to detail comes from my work with the Civil War Reenator Crew I was Advisor for. We were demonstrating to the public a historical reality the best we could and yet there were less serious reenactors that basically were there doing KOA camping with a Civil War theme. If people are coming and paying to see a historical drama acted out, the effort should be made to do it correctly. Those who did not subscribe to that principle were called FARBs, or Far Be It from real. If the public is looking up to the Scouts as those who exemplify doing it correctly, maybe the boys should take it seriously. (Otherwise they might as well be BOB. Reenactor who's impression is such that they would be "Better Off Bowling" (BOB)

Fair enough, but if that was all one was interested in there are other less expensive ways of building networking among the boys than NYLT.

Yes, I know, but that doesn't answer my question...

Unfortunately there is a ripple effect (or maybe a tsunami effect) that has to play itself out due to the initial action. It's really not done as of yet. The decision is the only thing that is done, now we will find out what it means and with the magnitude of the action it may take a couple of years to find out whether it was a good or bad thing for the BSA. The ship may weather a lot of storms over the course of time, but eventually if not captained correctly it will go down. With 70% of the units faith based this could have a major effect on the future of Scouting. LDS plays a big role, as do the Methodists Baptists and a few Lutherans. Scouting has had a pretty clear vision of what it is all about, but now I'm thinking a lot of people no longer know what that may be. So the question remains, move forward? Where?

"Yes, I knowed it was wrong, but I doed it anyway!" - Red Skelton, Mean Widdo Kid.

Yes, but one must always take into consideration the hypocritical political dynamics of the process. We have always led by example and every child knows the mantra, "Don't do as I do, do as I say."

People always reject the prophets.

Do you believe Timothy P. Johnson exists?

You're right, that would be the more probable reaction for the scout with no car. The best story I have heard came out of an Illinois Council where there was a highly skilled engineer that had 3 boys in cubs. At the very first Derby of his eldest he sat down and designed the ultimate car plans and gave them to his boy. The boy built the car according to spec and won all the way through his Cub Scout career as did his two younger brothers. When his last boy took honors as Webelos level and aged out, Dad burned the plans.

A simple Google search for the US Flag Code as prescribed by Congress is not that difficult to do, Looking in one's Boy Scout Handbook is a bit trickier, but still doable by most literate people. I do believe the T-FC requirements might have been pencil whipped on the flag decorum requirement by these scouts. Sorry, ignorance is not something one wishes to parade down the streets of any city in America with a scout uniform on. I'd do a review on this at the next BOR, but I"m thinking the adults are just as ignorant of the Flag Code as are the boys.

There's also a bit to be said that a boy showing up with a dad built car is far better than showing up with no car at all.

The kicker is: If a NEW program wouldn't get off the ground under these circumstances, how can an OLD program survive under these circumstances?

A bit of knowledge about flag presentations might go a long way to show that this adult-led fiasco actually knows what it's doing. Mr. Ego-SM out leading the line of flags? 3 US flags at one time? Green shirt vs. the tan? Looks like this guy might have missed the boat 40 years ago when they changed uniforms. That is also the case of the scout in the upper left corner of the picture. Are these really scouters or neighborhood organizers dressed up to look something like scouters? All this picture does, regardless of the color of the flags, is show pride in how NOT to present the BSA to the world. It basically looks like a spoof picture. This also seems to fit into Seattle's unofficial motto, "Find a really bad idea and stick with it."

I started this thread as a general observation that can lead to anywhere.... there is no thread to stay on track of. "Alrighty then, now that we have that settled, .... a change of character for the BSA means what? This thread is open to just this sort of ponderings about such things as a major shift in the character of BSA. By the way, are we to assume that it is your belief that BSA has been promoting activity which was contrary to the fundamental values and character of Scouting for over 100 years????? One would have thought this issue would have been brought up many, many years ago if that be the case. By the way, I happen to agree with @@Scouter99 that such changes are changing the character of the BSA one way or the other, and if there are those out there that wish to discuss this on THIS THREAD, I for one would like to hear it.

Welcome, better late than never. I hope you post more often than 9 times a year.

Just curious.... what is it about NYLT that makes it something necessary for the traditional management SPL to have? I have had only one boy take NYLT and he was in the troop when I took over. He confided in me that my boy-led, patrol-method teaching along with GBB training gave him more usable training than NYLT.

The reason we do it with the PL's selecting the SPL is based on servant leadership principles. In my troops the highest ranking position is the PL (patrol method). The APL's assist the PL's with concerns related to the patrol's operations. The SPL assists the PL's with concerns related to the other patrols in the troop. What we have found is that if the PL's are selecting the SPL's they are going to pick someone who will actually assist them in working things out between patrols. Having everyone select that person means the PL's have to settle for whatever happens. Well, they "out rank" the SPL so to speak so they get exclusive say in who it is that is going to be working things out among the PL's. What I have found out from how the boys work this out is very interesting. First of all, all PL's serve at the pleasure of their patrol members. They can be replaced in a heartbeat and they know it. They work really hard to keep that #1 spot. Contrary to most troops I have observed as a UC, the APL's (don't even get credit for holding the position) are a pretty useless position. They "fill in" for absentee PL's. Well, not in my troop. Instead my APL's do all kinds of things to make their PL's look really good. They are the PL's right-hand man and knows just about as much of what is going on as the PL. When the PL is away from the patrol for a PLC meeting or whatever, the APL is just as capable of running the patrol. So, now it's time to select a new SPL who is aging out, stepping down, or not doing the job..... The PL's get together and start deliberations. First of all none of the PL's want to step down from the #1 position of PL, so who's the most natural pool of leaders? THE APL's OF COURSE. They tend to haggle over who's got the best assistant that knows his job and is always there ready to help. Who would be the best assistant to help with inter-patrol concerns other than the best APL in the troop? It is for this reason, I can very comfortably stay out of the boy's back-room politics and somehow end up with some pretty good leadership in the troop. The "loser" PL is the one who has to now train up a new APL from within his patrol. I've never heard any complains about that process either. Our elections for SPL and PL tend to be heavily focused on functionality. If the boys can't do the job they are replaced. This isn't a punishment/negative thing, it just means they weren't ready to take on the responsibility. Many times the replacing PL will select as his assistant the former just deposed PL. It gives the former PL a chance to learn from the new PL and help make him even better (and lo and behold, who's in line for consideration for SPL?) It is really interesting sitting back and watching these political dynamics work out in the troop and patrols. I think a lot of the popularity vote junk just isn't something my boys want to deal with. If elected, you get a chance to show 'em whatcha got! As far as a general election for the SPL, which patrol really wants to give up their PL if he's good and if he's bad, that's not such a good choice either for the troop. Nope, let the PL's handle it. They're the ones who have to live with their selection.

How many knots does one need to know to own a Class A, B, or C RV? How well does one need to know maps and compass when they own a GPS? Service projects are credits for college bound students? Does one really need to know lashings when a bungee cord will work just as well? Isn't a 10 minute sales pitch at REI good enough to pick out the right equipment? And when you come right down to it, with all the world at our finger tips, LITERALLY!, why would anyone wish to get off the couch longer than to toss a frozen pizza in the oven? Scouting hasn't a chance until a major calamity and then only those that know the basics will survive. All he basics are there on You-Tube in case you're interested.

I'm homesick every year at summer camp. I'm so sick of home, a week in a tent in the woods is the only cure.

Yeah, right, I lived in San Diego and there's snow in San Diego County. I took a group of kids up into the mountains and at 6000' the bus driver told us we would have to turn back because he didn't know how to put the chains on. Needless to say, good old Midwest winters teach us many things. It was quite a chore getting them on the duelies, but we got to our destination and got in 3 days of sledding. So if you S. Calif. boys want snow there's plenty of it out there.

Do not attempt cold weather camping without training. My kid brother (ASM in another troop, further to the south) wanted to learn how to winter camp and he asked me to train him. I agreed and we went out. The first thing I did was mark out a doughnut pattern in the snow. Then I began shoveling the doughnut into the hole. He watched me for about 15 minutes and then said, "If I wanted to shovel snow I could have stayed home and done the driveway." I smiled and kept at it. About another 5-10 minutes and he said he was getting cold. I said I wasn't. He then went over to the truck got a shovel and he was warm in no time at all. After that he watched very closely, took a lot of notes and learned rather quickly what winter camping is all about.

Oh, but the best and warmest one is during winter camp is in the sleeping bag. The long night makes the trip worth it. The boys also like the night because they crawl into their snow caves and play cards half the night. One can't tell if the boys have their lights on or off in the caves. No fires for the whole weekend. White gas is best because propane doesn't work below 32 degrees. Alcohol is way too dangerous. Even white gas can be dangerous if spilled on the skin. It'll cause instant frostbite.

We have had a mix of native, European, Asian, Sub-Asian and African in my troops. We are a particularly diverse population, but in most cases, the parents were of mixed origin so I'm thinking the European parent may have initiated the boy into scouting. I can't say for sure. None of the boys ever moved on to Eagle.

I learned a long time ago to wear a necker on a regular basis. I have to mow the lawn today (about an acre and I have a push mower) and it's gonna be hot. A necker soaked every half hour and wrapped around the neck is a God-send. I have never used the necker just as ornamental, When I was doing Civil War reenacting I made square neckers/bandanas. 36" square, hemmed off. They were my towel, my wash cloth, my cooking hot pad (never make coffee in a tin cup on the fire without a hot pad handy), my coolant (soaked with water and wrapped around the neck), my brass polisher, and my ice protector (put ice in your hat, toss in the necker so the ice doesn't come in direct contact with the skin and let it run down your face and neck all afternoon) I give full credit to the necker that allowed me to stay on the field wearing a heavy wool uniform with temperatures well over 100 and head indexes well into the 120's. I had only one adult under my command go down from heat. By the time I got to him, others had already filled neckers with ice and had jammed his coat with them. The rest of the company had dumped their canteens on him. He was awake and lucid before the medics could reach him. The fella who went down did not use a necker, but I never saw him without one after that. There's a reason for neckers and they are not there to just look good with the uniform.