Stosh

Staked tents will fly, too, if the wind is strong enough. Those puny little stakes we use today are just there for show when it comes to a good storm.

I take it one has not had much experience working with co-ed groups. They are an entirely different animal than a single-sex group. As an adult, one approaches the situation differently. I have worked with both co-ed and single-sex groups all my life. I know the differences and there are differences.

But the boys can be empowered with the BSA vision and goals too. This is not something that is uniquely the possession of the adults. The boys can take ownership of the BSA vision and goals, too. When that happens, it's boy led, if not it's adult led.

And when all is said and done, a class-A swimmer doing snorkeling in the BWCA waters that ends up in the hospital with Giardia is yet another issue altogether. Swimming in a pool lessons the possibility of contamination, freak factors and with goggles and aids the boy might pass with flying colors. But in real life, that boy isn't going to be wearing goggles when he's fishing from a row boat, canoeing or kayaking, and he won't be doing any of those things in a pool. Does anyone other than myself think this whole discussion is based on fuzzy logic? A boy can swim only if he's in a pool and can wear ear plugs, goggles and nose pinches? Does that really make him a swimmer? What happens when the catamaran tips over in the lake and he gets dumped? He'll have a life-jacket on, but will he be a swimmer? If he's in a canoe fishing and it capsizes when at a non-scouting event and he was using the life-jacket (which is not required by law to be worn) as a seat cushion, is he a swimmer? How many what-if's is it going to take to really test these boys as to whether or not they can actually swim well enough to save their life?

If BSA is oriented to helping boys become men through character building and leadership development, does that mean we are to turn girls into men too? Or are we going to need to change the whole program from start to finish? A tweak here and there to accommodate the girls isn't going to cut it.

While not everything works well with everyone, one must accept the fact that what the boys want and what the adults want is the core of the discussion. I hear over and over again the "problems" people are facing when running scout units and it always seems to boil down to more problems with adults than boys. Yes, an ASM keeping their eye on the NSP is not the same thing as an ASM taking it over. Same for the TG. He is there to instruct and guide, not run the patrol. If the vision and goal of scouting lies with the SM, then the SM is running the show. The vision and goal of scouting lies with the boys, for good or for bad, it's the boys' program. As far as patrol structure? Not my baby. I don't get involved and I don't get blamed. If the meetings are boring, I don't get blamed. If someone complains about something, I don't get blamed. Now that may sound a bit like too much hands off, but I have boys that step up and take over in the vacuum left by adults. And as long as the adults stay out of it, the discipline problems are minor, the advancement happens, the program flows with jerks and bounds, but it progresses, the boys have a good time and for the most part everyone is happy. It's not for everyone, I agree. But as long as it is for the boys, who cares? Helicopter parents? Don't have any. That's spelled out in new boy orientation with the parents. If the parent wishes to work with all the boys, they are welcomed to join in on the programming end of things. If they don't, they are more than welcome to work on the committee. Because of this I have very little problem with families. Only once did it come to pass that I was removed as SM because I was expecting too much leadership out of the boys. They went back to more hands-on adult led and within 6 months they lost half their boys. Boys want opportunities, when they are taken from them in Scouting, they will find other opportunities elsewhere, and we see that process operating across the board. Just keep it in mind that the problems most adults face in the scouting program are the direct result of their own actions. Parent to SM: "My son is not happy with the way things are going." SM: "Well, there's nothing I can do about that, nor can you. So who does that leave to handle the problem?" Parent: "My son?" SM: "If he doesn't learn how to figure things out on his own, he'll never move out of your house."

I have 2 ASM's one a parent, none not. and no other parents involved. I am not a parent of anyone in my troop either. The three of us are involved with the program of the troop. As far as other parents involved? They work only to support the work of the program and do not interact with the troop as a whole. They organize fundraisers mostly so they don't have to pay as much for scouting activities. If someone wants a "job" we find them something to do, but usually it does not involve the unit other than MB counselor, or doing something they have a specialty at the boys have asked to have happen. As far as resistance to change goes, the normal pattern of change occurs when parents step in and start messing with the program, the result of which is the destruction of the program as it was designed. One sees this all the time when a parent wishes to "do more with their son" so they sign up and chaperone an event. What it amounts to is father and son team up to bond, and together they ignore the rest of the boys. Doesn't bode well for the leadership of the PL and the patrol method.

I don't think so. the secret to a goat raffle is (drum roll!) When you buy a ticket for the raffle, don't put YOUR name on the stub that is drawn. There's gotta be someone else out there that would totally appreciate getting a goat. We did this in a small town, at the big fireman's day event we raffled it off and the "winner", if they didn't want the goat paid $25 to us to raffle it off again. The mayor won a half dozen times, the police chief a few times, clergy got it and finally there was a scream of joy from the back, two little girls won the goat! Needless to say we raised about $15,000 for the ambulance service in town.

We still don't have a winner on the goat raffle.

So much for the entrepreneurial spirit. I guess the days of learning capitalism at an early age is a thing of the past. When I went off to college in 1968 I had in today's equivalent dollars $48,000 in the bank. When I graduated from graduate school 9 years later, I was $1,500 in student debt, a new car, and I still had the money I had when I was in high school. Never underestimate how far the government can reach into one's pockets in today's world. A Scout is thrifty, it's just a bit harder in current times.

I see very little difference between adults taking over the operation of the patrols any different than the older boys taking over the operation of the patrols. In either case, the dynamics of developing leadership are taken away from the new boys. Is it any wonder then they just sit back and do nothing for the first two years, struggle the next two years and then quit. A level playing field, a well trained TG and hands off ASM, and the new guys get an opportunity to show what they got right from the git-go.

Sounds like a kid can get busted and hauled off to jail for a lemonade stand where ValleyBoy lives. Times sure have changed. I looked forward to snow days from school because it meant lots of snow and a whole day of shoveling! Up until she passed, I always did a freebie for the elderly lady next door. After every snow storm she got her walk shoveled in case of a medical emergency. Her son lived a hour away and couldn't always make it right away. Never said a word, but she always knew who did it. And what does the city say about a scout fundraiser where everyone goes out and shovels walks for a donation?

The kid that relies on goggles will quickly learn that they aren't needed when he rolls the kayak or canoe. Well, unless he stands up and jumps in feet first to start with.

or lightning strike.... or flash-flooded.... or... your mileage may vary from place to place, but we do hold activities in the outdoors on occasion. We had a unit from our area doing winter camping at -43o and they did just fine. Ya gotta know whatcher doin' to pull it off.

I did some more research on it and @CalicoPenn is correct. And that would mean the councils are independent "franchises" of National and CO's are independent "franchises" of the Councils. It was interesting a few years back a number of the councils lost their non-profit status because they didn't do the paperwork. That could have gotten interesting.

As much as the NSP isn't liked, often times it isn't used much, but you have touched on one of the key assets for having one. This leadership/decision making doesn't need to wait until they are 13, FC, and well into scouting. With NSP, it starts immediately. Although it's somewhat of a misnomer, the NSP only means that the TG and maybe an ASM keep an eye on things a bit more than if they were a regular patrol. The caveat comes when they "break up" the guys into regular patrols rather than just renaming them a regular patrol. They have struggled and bonded during that first year and unless there are major personality conflicts, they really want to stay together. As one who stays out of patrol selection matters, often times maybe one or two will bail to another regular patrol, but I find friendship holds the group together. If the patrol is small, often times they will merge into one of the younger regular patrols where the age difference might only be a year or two. If that doesn't work, they take on the next year's NSP into their patrol to increase numbers to the magic 6-8 boys. That first year is critical for the opportunity to learn to fail and come up smiling. The burnt grilled cheese seems to be the traditional indicator in most cases. Pancakes comes in a close second. And nothing trumps failure like burnt bacon! But they learn, that by the time they get to 13, they are seasoned scouts, with FC skills. I prefer that over delaying the pain until they are 13 and in two years of struggle, they leave at 15. And of course, if the older boys are the ones making all the decisions in the patrol, what chance does the new guy get to get his hands dirty? Just my opinion, worth about 2-cents.

It depends on where you live and how well your boys are acclimated to the weather. Low 20's and -windchill is nice normal for our area. If you are in Miami, not so much. As long as one is vigilant for frostbite and hypothermia, you should do okay. If the boys are sledding or moving about, they should do well, if they stop moving, bring them in. Their clothes will be wet on the inside and it could cause problems. Temps in the 20's would indicate rain gear as mentioned. The #1 problem you will be facing is not the cold, but the wet. Keep the boys dry. If they come in soaked, warm them up and they can't go back out unless they have dry clothes. Bring extra mittens and boots. I use choppers and liners and switch out liners frequently, same for socks. Instead of cancelling, be prepared with prerequisite instruction on cold weather activities, and be prepared for cold weather injuries. Make it a learning experience, it'll pay off on any other activity they do outside away from scouting.

Whoa, that doesn't bode well for family camping...... But I must confess, 50 years ago when I was in scouts as a youth, I could easily come up with the same three reasons.

Or.... have the boys in the MB class organize and run the program. I find that people in general learn more by doing than reading the book, which most don't do anyway.

Not everyone has deep pocket CO's.

Maybe it's because Texas didn't exist prior to March 2, 1836.

So which is it?

I have a problem with the boys planning and running fundraisers. If a boy wishes to do that, I don't get involved. Fundraising is not part of the BSA program for boys. I let my parents know, up front, that Scouting can be expensive and they can either 1) pay for it out of their pockets, or 2) run fundraisers so it won't cost them so much. The boys don't have to participate in the actual fundraiser, but to-date, no one has opted out. The money is partitioned out as a certain % going to the troop, and a % going to the participating patrols. The committee decides how the troop money is spent and the boys decide how the patrol money is spent. There are bragging rights throughout the year as to who can raise the most in popcorn sales. The winner is generally coming in over $2500 in sales. Each year the competition gets a bit more friendly fierce and the funds keep coming in enough to cover all but $50 for summer camp. We are a troop in an economically depressed part of town and yet the boys are not missing out because of costs. Yes. we do have a flag.

Welcome to the forum, your test works.

BSA is a non-profit corporation and the districts function as departments in that corporation. The assets all belong to the one legal entity. The only time there is any question as to assets are those acquired by the franchise CO's, They are acquired under the tax id/exempt status of the CO. If one were to go back and look at who holds the deed to the campground land, it should answer the question. I don't think that councils can actually hold a deed, not being a legal entity in and of itself.