Stosh

One must also realize at what level of conflict we currently are and once that is identified, everything begins to make sense.

Win-Win is ideal. Win-Lose at least some will support the decision. Lose-Lose means the situation was botched so badly that no one feels good about any of it. The most dangerous for any organization is the Lose-Lose because then members from both sides of the issue will leave. This decision is not a Lose-Lose, but a Win-Lose and at least a remnant of the organization will possibly survive. The Lose side is still deciding their decision so much of what will result of BSA's decision is still yet to be decided.

It's called Kitty Litter and one can pick it up at any Sam Walton's General Store.

I'm not disagreeing with you one bit, @@RememberSchiff, but the fact remains, just whose money is it and how does one deal ethically with in in the first place. In my troop it has always been very clear that the money belongs to the CO and the leadership makes it clear that regardless of how hard a scout works at a fund raiser, he is raising money so that the CO can provide the funds necessary for the success of the troop. The unit is a team and that team belongs to the CO. Along with "hiding" the money from the CO, it is unethical on the part of the scout leadership to mislead parents in this process and give them a false impression that some of the troop funds belong to them. It is also unethical to spend all the money when they leave on a big farewell celebration. I have seen theft, misdirection, pea/shell game with assets, poor stewardship of entrusted funds, etc. in the many years I have been involved with scouting. Adults who would never think of suggesting something dishonest the boys should do is something they feel no remorse doing themselves. The reason one can "predict money problems ahead" is because of the basic dishonesty of the leadership in the unit. I can honestly say that after working with church youth groups for 40+ years, NO ONE EVER felt that a penny used for youth ministry belonged to anyone but the congregation. I cannot say the same for adults affiliated with BSA. The money problems ahead you are referring to are self-inflicted by the BSA units themselves. Don't blame the CO's for adjusting their funds towards youth development, or whatever they wish, when they leave the BSA. The fault lies with the unethical assumptions of the BSA leadership in the unit.

It is still theft regardless of what account it is in. It would seem that when it comes to money, morality usually takes a back seat even in scouting.

I have more problems with this kind of political agenda and posturing than I have with the gentleman's homosexuality. People can be straight jerks and homosexual jerks. But they do have one thing in common.

And my mantra has always been, "There's nothing in ones' marriage that divorce can't make it worse." Everyone I share that with seems to agree with me. Divorce is finally admitting that what you have been doing all along is a total failure. I'm glad people feel that the 100 year history of BSA has been a failure.

I kinda thought that with all the divorce situations today, a scout paid a $1 and could participate in two units. I wasn't going to speak up because I wasn't sure. I offered a few older scouts to come help with my troop start up, (no takers, not even those that were members of the CO). I thought they could be registered even if it was only temporary. The troop with the full fee would be the "home" troop.

BSA made it's political media push, now it's everyone else's turn.

I wish them well. but how many boys have signed up? At this point it is just a political posturing media event.

@ I know you'll change your mind once you read the book. My kid brother gave me a copy and it's a really interesting read. I still have my backpacking toilet that I carry that doesn't need plastic bags like one uses to clean up after their dogs.

And that is the decision left for all CO's, unit leaders and scouts to make. I guess we're going to find out who's really all that interested in playing the game with the new rules.

No one starts out liking "public speaking". But skits are a major part of the learning process into adulthood for scouts. They go and do goofy skits and everyone gets a good laugh and the ice warms a bit. As the boy develops these become more natural and eventually in Boy Scouts they can make presos, teach mini classes/seminars, talk to a group of boys, do silly skits and sing stupid songs along with all the rest of the boys. It's part of the processes of working together as a team for the sake of the team. The boys aren't doing stand-alone speaking, they are doing a skit with their pards. To deny the boys the opportunity to do a couple of these with just one event and pencil whipping the rest deprives the boy an opportunity to grow and develop. I surely hope that this doesn't become a negative for the boys so they become fearful of doing it at all. Skits and songs are a major part of campfire activities which your boys may never be able to be a part of unless they practice. I didn't and still don't really like the water. But I kept coming back and doing more. Eventually I got really close to earning my life-saving certificate. I can swim really well, but I do not swim for fun, I swim so I can canoe, kayak, sail, etc. Do I like to do stupid skits? No, but for the sake of my boys, I get up there with the rest and do my part. It's a lesson we all need to learn.

One can be against what the BSA did and still believe all US citizens should be equally protected under the law. @@Rick_in_CA your assumption is not true. If one sits down to pay a game of chess and half way through the game the opponent decides no one can castle, one must stop and pause to ponder whether or not we are still playing chess. It has nothing to do with the integrity of the opponent nor the validity of one getting up and leaving in the middle of the game. When one changes the rules they run the risk of changing the game. There are other games going on out there and chess is one of them.

I hope you understand that that posting was supposed to be sarcastic and that the decision of one group vilifies another bystander. THAT is what Scouting is NOT supposed to do. If BSA makes a policy statement they are responsible for any damages done. If CO's leave, it is not their fault someone changed the rules in the middle of the game and just because they don't want to play the game anymore does not make them the villains. It's time BSA owned up to it's own responsibility like we teach the boys when they make their choices in life.

This gal is spot on. We have forgotten how to handle this problem because even pit toilets are a problem for most kids today. They may have peed on the bushes outside the house, but when nature calls louder than that, they have no idea what to do. It is a really excellent book once you get past the title.

Nope

I think it's a good idea to deprive the boys of doing a second fun skit. As long as the boys are just there to get credit and a pin, having fun is just a side benefit along the way. I think you husband is totally 100% correct, every short cut one takes teaches the boys that get the prize first are the true winners. On the other hand, if you think the program is meant to just have fun, you could probably do it your stupid way. @@Lenae I sure hope you realize my answer is dripping with sarcasm.

And in the wake of history lies a lot of well meaning, ill-conceived good ideas that really won't go anywhere and will do more damage than good before they fade into oblivion. The bad part of being a student of history is that one often times sees the handwriting on the wall and can anticipate the slow motion train wreck before it inevitably happens.

It makes the decision on the part of any hesitant parent a whole lot easier.

First of all, welcome to the forum! One must remember that not everything that has a BSA logo on it means it is officially BSA or BSA generated. Local units, districts or councils can have custom made items with the logo on them as well. I have a duffle bag with the BSA centennial jamboree logo on it and the troop number of my contingent. Yes, it is a nice collector item, but one will need to know a lot of background history to make any sense out of it's importance. I'm thinking this might be one of those custom made items that were given as a gift, token of appreciation or some other local recognition item. It's kinda like the difference between an official ScoutMaster patch for the uniform and the local camporee patch given out for showing up last spring to the district camporee. The SM patch is BSA generated and the camporee patch is district generated.

I would be extremely careful of ever telling anyone there are or might be homosexual leaders in the unit. "As part of our comprehensive screening and youth protection efforts, prompt reporting of inappropriate conduct with youth is required of all Scout leaders. The BSA records such allegations in the Ineligible Volunteer Files—whether or not the adults involved were Scout leaders or the youth involved were Scouts. By being proactive and acting upon many kinds of information—including tips and hearsay that cannot be proven in a court of law—the BSA has successfully kept dangerous or potentially dangerous individuals, as well as inappropriate role models, out of our organization." This opens one up to a personal law suit if the parents ever realize that a simply innuendo can terminate a scout leaders eligibility for membership in the BSA. The term "inappropriate conduct" is not very well, nor legally defined terminology.

No problem, I thought maybe you thought using wax paper was a poor idea.

And Ladies and Gentlemen, there you have it in a nutshell, the total polarization of the BSA is complete. We're going to find out whether this decision was made for the benefit of the majority or minority because not all the feet votes have come in.