Stosh

When and if one does make contact with a potential new troop, remember the key is: Adults talk to adults, boys talk to boys. And ne'er the twain shall meet! As an adult one should be asking questions like participation % in activities. Low numbers means the activities aren't want really interest the boys. If boys pick activities on their time table, participation tends to be higher. Also how much interaction is there between adults and boys. Is the SM or his/her designee the only one interacting with the boys or do all the adults hover around the boys "helping" 95% of the time? Who do the adults say are in charge? and who do the boys say are in charge of the program? Listen for pronouns in the conversation. Do the adults use "we" all the time? or do they talk about the boys doing things. Boy "led" okay, but what about the patrol-method? Do the adults break up the patrols for convenience sake? How disruptive to the troop would a major high adventure trek cause in the patrols? Will they need to break up patrols to do that? How are the patrols selected in the first place? Don't be afraid to ask some serious questions, the worse case scenario is your boy going through all the hassle of changing troops only to find out he jumped out of the fry pan into the fire. I have seen a lot of adults that do a fantastic job of schmoozing the new potential scouts only to have them quit after a year or so. Good luck on your search. And keep it in mind that if all the other troops out there are worse than yours, you and your son may need to roll up your sleeves and work on fixing the current troop.

I don't believe I brought up the subject of Eagle rank as a marketing brand in the Local Option thread.

Why would anyone want to replace junk with more junk. Go for getting your $150 back.

As stupid as that conversation might sound, it is pretty much verbatim I had the first year I was in my second troop pushing the boy-led idea to an entrenched adult-led troop. We finally got to go up there and the boys had a blast. The nice thing about it was the river was really shallow and rocky so the rapids looked 10 times worse than they really were and when the boys did dump the water was pretty much just waist deep. I never told them that, they thought they were doing the Colorado in a raft. It ended up an annual trip. If you look at the conversation, you do a bit more "directive" than I would. I try to use the conversation to draw out an initiative so the ownership of the actual trip passes to them and stays with them. I try to keep myself as a semi-disinterested bystander. The trick is to get the boys asking questions, not the adults.

In a good boy-led program, the maturity development in the boys can easily be seen in the single year. By the time the boys are 3-4 years into the program, there's really not much an adult can do except fill in the 2-deep BSA requirement... and learn how to drink coffee from 300' away.

I was wondering how long it would take for someone who's mind is wandering into all the wrong places before they couldn't hold it in. Your winning booby prize is Iowa Corn. http://www.bvhcenter.org/History.html

@@Kevin P welcome to the forum and thanks for pointing out this issue. Wherever my boys go on any activity, I always have a Plan B option in my hip pocket. A few years back my troop wanted to do a white-water canoe trip on the Bois du Burle river in Northern Wisconsin. It's a 5 hour trip up to the river. We get up there and the weather is "ify" on Friday night and T-storms heading our way on Saturday. That pretty much ended the canoe trip right then and there. So what's Plan B? It can't really be something similar to Plan A. What is up there? Well, there's the Bong Museum with a full scale P-38 to see plus movies and other artifacts including Bong's Congressional Medal of Honor..... There's the ship yards in Duluth and there's always ships to be toured there. Done the military destroyers and nuclear cargo ships and a whole bunch of really neat stuff to see there, etc. Tossed out the alternatives to going home to the boys and they all decide the Bong Museum was the right thing to do. Off we went. They had a great time. I don't think they would ever be interested in doing museums as Plan A's, but Plan B's make excellent museum opportunities.

Seasonality also plays a part. In colder weather and winter overing in the northern climes requires the pipes and fixtures clear of water or they will burst due to freezing. Pit toilets are year around minimum maintenance. I did notice that Shenandoah NATIONAL park there were a lot of pull-off viewing areas that had pit toilets. Higher altitudes, colder clime and frozen pipe hassles. Not worth the expense.

All my boys from day one are given the opportunity to lead, are given skills to teach and care for others, and generally treated as a peer in the adult association method. I don't direct, coach, mandate, guide, or whatever. In our local Canoe/Kayak Club of adults, I am just another kayaker and in the troop I treat the boys the same way. They are the ones running the show. I guess to a certain degree, I do have an influence on what the boys do. If the activity is inappropriate to BSA, I simply excuse myself from the activity and don't attend. In the 30+ years of adult "leading" in a troop, that has happened only a couple of times that I can remember. Three out of the four weekends per month are pretty much mine to do with as I see fit. One is dedicated to what the boys want to do. However at the evening campfire they do get regaled with my "adventures". Pictures are passed around last meeting of my loop tour through the Washington peninsula with pictures of our hike through Olympic National Park and our afternoon of tide pooling at Ruby Beach. Then I showed them the pictures of the National Car Museum in Tacoma and the Heritage Airplane Museum in Everett. Do I direct or just dangle little carrots out there? Last summer camp we shared a campsite with another troop from a different council and different state. I was doing one of these brag and gag outings for my boys and the other boys were listening. Well, last week I get a call from one of the boys from that other troop wanting me to help them set up a week long canoe trip instead of doing summer camp next summer. In late August the Mrs. and I are going to be hiking the Porkies in N. Michigan. The boys have been invited to go along if they wish and are willing to set it up with meals and travel plans. Makes no never mind to me what they decide. I only create opportunities.

Any unit that carries over a $25k fund which is expected to grow each year is systematically stealing from the boys and their program. Money was raised to be spent on program not squirreled away in the bank.

As a scout leader, I create opportunities for young boys to figure out what it means to be a young man. The outdoor stuff is just the frosting on the cake. As a youth I had a fairly poor experience in scouting which I maintain was the poor quality of adult leadership. If it wasn't for the outdoor part of scouting back then I wouldn't have stayed as long as I did. No not everyone needs to be a scout. There are still adults out there that do very well in the maturity development of their children. However, not everyone falls into that category and could use supplementary help. And then there are those parents ... well, we won't go into that. As one who has been camping, boating, hiking, hunting, fishing and enjoying nature for over 60 years, I find it difficult to think that today's culture in America is missing a tremendous opportunity along the way. Adults work hard at keeping nature at bay. We have furnaces and A/C, screen doors and windows, and waterproof homes to protect us from the Great Outdoors. An insect, mouse or snake inside that protective barrier is cause for great concern in the extreme. Exterminators are called in to poison and remove them. No such thing as LNT here. There's no leeway here. Nature, except for maybe some decorative household plant needs to be kept away from one's personal domain. If it wasn't for the many years as a scouter, I have no idea how I would have survived my office cubicle years. Had I known back then what I know now, things would have been even better. So, the next generation should have at least some opportunity to know that. It's kinda like the Head Start program for small children, giving them a "head's up" when it comes to education in school. I think that the outdoors part of scouting and the independence it offers gives young boys a "head's up" when it comes to the physical, emotional, and spiritual life in general. But everyone has a choice.and those choices make the path for each individual to follow through life. Some of the opportunities along the way make things harder for that growth and some things make it easier. Scouting is one of those things that can make it easier if done correctly.

I think the gist of the issue is whether the King holds the stirrup for the Pope or the Pope holds the stirrup of the King. And for those who don't understand that, Do the religious tenets hold sway over the governmental code or vice versa? This debate has raged on for quite some time now and shows no let up any time soon. So, getting back on topic... for Lutherans, the Bible is the ultimate statement of morality and civil law needs to comply with it and it is inappropriate for followers to accept laws contrary to the teaching of Scripture. Where one sees this generally is in countries ruled by tyranny and greed and subsequent push back becomes necessary. Detrich Bonhoeffer (Lutheran Theologian) was hanged by the Third Reich for being part of the conspiracy to assassinate Hitler. While I have no crystal ball to tell me where that tipping point may be in America, I do think in a sense BSA has found it for this issue of homosexual acceptance. While I don't think anyone is in any danger of assassination, I do think an exodus of sorts may soon be quite evident.

Nope, the boys decide what they want to do. If they want to go rustic, fine. If they want to plop, fine, If they mix it up, fine. I don't gotta do nuttin'

Yep, it's the Scriptures as written.

Not to worry, they will be leaving, and it might be kinda important to BSA to know why. I don't think BSA thought this one through very well, and telling people to shut up and leave really is an appropriate suggestion to be making. It lacks a certain veneer of friendliness and courtesy. After all you are talking about a cadre of people who have been more than loyal to a program that has been waning for years now.

I guess Captain Obvious must have missed the 300' between patrols suggestion? Of course that could also imply 300'+ as well. All my campouts tend to be "rustic" in nature in that the boys carry in what they will use. If they have to make multiple trips, that's their choice, but as time goes on they get better at it. Activities are planned by patrol so at the camporees etc. they pretty much do their own thing, but there are occasions where a patrol will do activities without the rest of the troop "tagging along." It just depends on what the boys plan for their activities.

If my memory serves me correctly, the 12 Sons (Tribes) of Israel were the result of 2 wives and 2 concubines. The Bible, Torah, and Koran all support this position. In terms of "religious freedom" the people of Utah had to abandon their religious practice of such things in order to become a state in the Union. A classic example of politics overriding religious beliefs. Marriage as defined as one man and one woman is not rooted in the Abraham tradition.

Too much of a good thing isn't good either. While I have experienced some fantastic Eagle Scouts in the program, I have also experienced some fantastic Never-got-past-second-class Scouts, too. I don't think the emphasis should be on the rank as much as the quality of the program. Pencil whipping the T-FC, MB mills, over emphasis on advancement, etc. often detract rather than enhance the program. Then there are the make-it-up-as-you-go types of leaders that really take the wind out of the program. "Next month we'll be doing a canoe paddle around Little Puddle Lake and all the boys that are 15 years old, have Swimming, Life Saving, Canoeing, First Aid MB's, and are part of the Honor Patrol are encouraged to sign up." Okay, that's a stretch, but I've seen some troops come pretty close. We seem to be over emphasizing the Eagle issue to the point where we lose track of the Outdoors, the adventure, the character development, the independence and simply growing up to be a man of honor, gets lost in the hoopla. The reason I tend to rattle people's chain like @@fred johnson 's is not because I'm anti-Eagle, it's because I want all those Eagles, and Lifers, and Stars to have something of quality when they move on to other things in life. I want them to be able to feel comfortable taking their family camping, fishing, teaching their sons how to hunt and hike. I don't want them to think that woodland flowers are not important enough to stop and enjoy on a hike or to sit and watch a beaver and family build a dam. It's because of this when I hear, Mom and Dad helped me get my Eagle so I can put it on my college app and business resume, that it kinda rubs me the wrong way.

A diploma from an Ivy League school will do it too. And according to the proposed logic, if only 5% of the Ivy League schools' students graduate, it makes those diplomas even more valuable? It's my opinion that with a graduation rate of 5% one has to seriously wonder about the quality of the school's program.

http://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2014/12/03/individual-scout-accounts/ http://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2015/06/10/ask-expert-units-carry-balance-unit-accounts/

The vast majority of scouts do not get Eagle. If that was the goal of scouting, we have, year after year, been abject failures with the program.

I'm still thinking that a strategic pause and long deep breath at certain points of the Scout Oath and Law will solve a lot of problems for those of us who adhere to a more "traditional" approach to BSA scouting.

And this is why I see every day, white crosses in the Catholic cemetery memorializing the holocaust of the innocents that were aborted and people picketing daily, the "Catholic" hospital now bought up by the Mayo Clinic and performing abortions there. All perfectly legal in civil courts, but seem to rub a lot of Catholics the wrong way. I really don't think some guy in some "think tank" somewhere is the go-to guy for answers. I'm thinking a lot of Catholics feel there are courts that are higher than even the Papal See in Rome.

Our troop pays for everything equally. All the boys going to summer camp get a "scholarship" of total camp fees minus $50. If a scout doesn't go to summer camp he doesn't get the scholarship set aside in his own private little hide-away account. He's here to participate in the program, if he chooses not to, so be it. Gas to get to camp is reimbursed to the person driving the vehicles. Equipment is purchased for the troop only. No personal equipment is purchased. Sleeping bags and back packs were donated by a military unit in our neighborhood so no boy needs to purchase one unless they want to. This equipment remains the property of the CO. There are no personal accounts, but record is kept of all $50 camper fees from the boys going. While we are a new troop, immediately after summer camp and before popcorn sales, I believe we had about $150 in the bank for the troop last year and I don't know what it is this year, but it isn't much better. I do know that my ASM "treated" the boys to an hour of archery and bow rental last week and paid with her own credit card. We rounded up a bunch of rent-free kayaks this week so the boys could have an outing on the river for free as well. Next week is the popcorn meeting so things will look a bit better going into the fall activities. All the parents know that if our fundraising isn't successful, they have to pay out of their pockets for their boys to attend the activities. So far our financial policies have not raised any eyebrows from anyone.