Stosh

RETREAT is a word that should NEVER be used in a flag ceremony. The Colors nor the Guard ever retreat.

Every fall I take YPT.... I can never remember whether it is due up or not.

One year my boys found a 30' piece of rope and jump roped for about 2 hours. Who'da thunk.

If one is worried about boogie men, they might want to check out the sex offender database and see how close one of those people live. I would almost bet they are a lot closer than people would expect.

The fun part of this whole discussion is the fact that no one does it the same. The military guys seem to have 2-3 different ways of doing it, veteran's organizations have their processes, even other government organizations do their protocols differently, i.e. police and firefighters. If I was a member of any of these organizations, it would be important for me to know the routine. However, I am not, I am a civilian. I go according to civilian protocol, and I teach it to my boys as well. If they join the armed forces, they can learn the new protocol as needed. The big hassle in the summer camp originated out of some naval reserve unit "teaching" the camp staff how to do the flag ceremonies. That's all well and good for the naval reserve people, but it is contrary to what is taught in the US Flag Code for civilians and the BSA Handbook. So are the scouts to follow the Handbook or some other military protocol? I kinda think it's important to teach what the BSA has defined in the book. As SM I tend to stick to what is in the US Flag Code and BSA Handbook and further use those protocols for the flag ceremonies. After all the intent of all this fal-de-rah is trying to pay honor to one's country, the people who fought and died for it and the freedom we enjoy because of it. So if some guy standing there in his speedo swim suit throws a full military salute when the flag goes by, I don't have a problem with that because that gentleman may be a veteran who has earned the right to do exactly what he did. On the other hand, I don't think there are any BSA Scouts who have earned the right to salute the flag in a ceremony wearing a made up unofficial uniform and having leaders say it's okay. Well, it's not. When those boys serve their time in the military, they will be able to do that for the rest of their lives. Until then, unless one is in full official uniform, it's hand over the heart. The US Congress and all the states in the union have agreed that that is the proper way to show respect for the US Flag as a civilian. If any of my boys become police or firefighters, they may have to learn yet another protocol, but whatever they do it should be appropriate to their situation in life and showing full respect for the occasion. And as far as the "commands" go, whatever is used, it should be understood by those participating in the activities. I do know what SCOUT SALUTE and PRESENT ARMS means. I can figure out HAND SALUTE, too. READY, TWO is a stretch as is TWO if I was not a Scout. I was at one of our local military establishments a few years back doing presentations for Armed Forces Day. At the end of the day I was cleaning up and packing my car in the parking lot. I heard the loudspeaker off in the distance calling for the retirement of the flag. I stood at attention until I saw the flag come down, then resumed my packing. Two soldiers walked behind me and quietly said "Thank you, you must be one of the scouts." I was not wearing a Scout uniform, but they understood the intent of respect. Basically all I did was stop, face the flag and stand quietly.

You are correct that the US Flag Code is not law, only the standard "Public concern and confusion regarding the proper respect shown to the United States flag has given rise to many questions on the law relating to the flag’s handling, display, and use. Both the state governments and the federal government have enacted legislation on this subject. On the national level the Federal Flag Code1 provides uniform guidelines for the display of and respect shown to the flag. In addition to the Code, Congress has by statute designated the national anthem and set out the proper conduct during its presentation. The Code is designed “for the use of such civilian groups or organizations as may not be required to conform with regulations promulgated by one or more executive departments†of the federal government. Thus, the Flag Code does not prescribe any penalties for non-compliance nor does it include enforcement provisions; rather the Code functions simply as a guide to be voluntarily followed by civilians and civilian groups." As a matter of fact, by law one does not need to adhere to the US Flag Code nor show any respect towards the flag, pledge or anthem. Those that follow the US Flag Code understand that it will be known as showing appropriate respect for the flag, pledge and anthem. Those not following the US Flag Code will not be penalized by still remain open to the judgement of others as to the appropriateness of their variant behavior towards the Flag.

I like your Marine Manual. Even there one finds discrepancies that aren't historically correct. "a. The use of the plural form of the word color (colors) to designate a single flag, ensign, standard, or pennant comes from the ancient tradition of referring to the multiple colors found on these types of standards. This tradition is carried on today when we refer to the national colors; red, white, and blue and the Marine Corps colors; scarlet and gold. The plural form is also used when referring to the types of movements, ceremonies or musical accompaniment involving the colors, i.e., carry colors, morning colors, “To the Color†etc. b. When designating personnel or units as part of color details then the appropriate singular or plural form of the word will be used, i.e., color guard, color company, etc. " 150 years ago the term color was used for a single flag regardless of it's color. Colors were the multiple flags a unit carried to let the command structure know what regiment was where on the battlefield. The national color told them which side you were on, the state color identified the state and the regimental flag identified the unit from that state. In camps of multiple battalions and thousands of men, it was important to know who was where, when, etc. Hospitals had flags, command posts had flags, etc. It was how one knew where everyone was. In the midst of battle if the colors were in disarray, the unit had a tendency to fall apart, but the flag bearers knew enough to retreat back and reform so that the regiment could rally 'round the flag and reform as well. The "flag" referenced here would not be the national color or the state color, but the regimental color, regardless of what Hollywood tells you. What they did 150 years ago and what they do today, the terminology they used and what is used today has morphed over the years regardless of what the manual says. Even the people today try to re-write history. I would also note that the Civil War soldier when meeting an officer would hand salute if he was not carrying a weapon. But because he carried his weapon generally in his right hand, he would salute an officer with his left hand horizontally across his chest when carrying his weapon.

That's why the American Legion always uses Present Arms/Order Arms with or without weapons? Yeah, I know it's not "official" but Wikipedia says: United StatesWithin the United States Military, it is executed in the following procedures: If unarmed, a salute is rendered. If armed with a firearm, present the underside of the firearm towards the one receiving the honour. If bearing a guidon, lower the guidon to a horizontal position with the lower portion of the staff resting in the pit of the right arm. If armed with a sword or sabre, on the first count raise the sword vertically or at a 30-degree angle from vertical, depending on the branch of the military, with the sword grip 6 inches in front of the neck, and then on the second count lower the sword to the right side, pointing at the ground at a 45-degree angle, with the right hand or knuckle bow next to the pant seam. The true edge is always to the left during the whole procedure of "present sword." As with all proper commands, it is to be given from the position of attention only. Following "Present arms", the command "Order arms" (also a two-part command) is given to return to the proper position of attention. http://usmilitary.about.com/od/theorderlyroom/l/blpresentarms.htm http://www.army.mil/article/60990/Present_Arms/ http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/present+arms http://www.armystudyguide.com/content/Drill_Sergeant_Resources/Drill_sergeant_presentations/present-arms-from-sling-a.shtml Yeah, I know my buddy is a "bit off" and confused at times, but I don't think he's out of bounds here on this issue. I did realize when I was doing this research that I may have some indication of where the TWO comes from. When training, the commands are in cadence. and by the numbers. First there is a preparatory command such as FORWARD, BACKWARD, AT THE RIGHT OBLIQUE, AT THE LEFT OBLIQUE, BY THE LEFT FLANK, BY THE RIGHT FLANK and then the execution command MARCH. The first part tells the soldier what to expect and the second tells him when to do it. So, when the drill sergeant instructs, "By the numbers-FORWARD-MARCH-ONE-TWO", the soldier will not step off on the command MARCH, but on the command TWO. It gives the solder a chance to think the command and then understand the numeric cadence of the command. Once the training is complete "By the numbers" isn't used any longer and the soldier will step off on the word MARCH.. Maybe this is, however, a remnant hang over of the command where the TWO is used. This is the only plausible explanation I can think of for TWO being used.

I'd be surprise to know where TWO originated from. in 30+ years of scouting, I have never heard an explanation or even hearing about anyone who might know. It's just a made up tradition used in the BSA. I don't know of any other organization that uses it.

When "under arms" (i.e. carrying one's weapon) one presents out front the weapon as the salute. When not "under arms" one uses the hand salute. There can be three different types of salute in the military, sword presentation by the officers, weapon presentation by those under arms and hand salute by the rest, but the command to salute (Present Arms) and return to Attention (Order Arms) is always the same.

We are not a military organization and military protocol should not be the norm. Civilian Scouts are to use the US Flag Code as directed by Congress. My military buddies always use the PRESENT ARMS to salute and ORDER ARMS to return to the position of Attention. At least that's what my CC who is presently serving in the National Guard at the moment told me. He also told me he had no idea where the TWO came from in that the military does not use it . It probably should be noted that no matter where one goes there's probably going to be local variances, traditions and such, but when it comes to teaching the T-FC requirements, one ought to stick with the US Flag Code.

Plain and simple. "Color Guard present the colors." According to the US Flag Code, as the Flag passes, stand, and salute, just like at any other procession/parade. The color guard knows what to do. After whatever ceremony is used, Invocation, Pledge? Oath, Laws, etc. "Color Guard dismissed." Everything else falls under the We-think-we-know-what-we're-doing category of useless commands trying to impress someone in the crowd. It looks like a military ceremony done by people who try really hard not to be a military organization. BSA is a patriotic organization of civilians and fall under the US Flag Code for civilians. Last Memorial Day I went with the boys to march in the parade. Council group of Cubs and Scouts were forming up and were having a discussion on how to form the flag line. Every unit had their troop flag, US Flag and some even had state flags. It was interesting the vast number of incorrect suggestions being tossed out by totally clueless BSA members. ONE US Flag out front. All the rest of the US Flags put back in their vehicles. Second flag line consisting of one state flag to the right and all the other troop flags to the left. Surprisingly this is the protocol from the BSA handbook and I was told it was i was wrong by SM/ASM level Scouters. Seriously??? These are the people teaching flag protocol to their troops? People used to look to the scouts for the correct answers on this subject. I hope they dropped that practice because what they are getting does not follow the US Flag Code in the majority of instances. The mass of scouts to follow the flag line. No ego-driven leaders out front. My boys left the flags back in the storage unit and walked at the rear of the BSA mob walking down the street. We were also the only unit that stayed for the Memorial Day ceremony. We felt that it was more important to be at the memorial service for our fallen veterans than just filling a spot in the parade. I have noticed in recent years that the school bands have dropped the US Flag from their color guard for parades so that people don't have to quit standing and sitting each time a band passes. Not that most people in the crowd even know one is supposed to stand and civilian salute......

Just because someone once said so. It makes no sense to anyone because no one knows where it came from. There's a lot of myth, legends and lies about flag protocol that it is very difficult to keep up with the latest made up rules. When in doubt refer back to the US Flag Code otherwise try to do something with some respect and sensibility surrounding it. That in itself should keep a lot of scouters busy for a while.

One also has to remember that there are different dynamics going on when it comes to flag protocol. First of all the military has their own protocols and they have been around for as long as the US has been a country. What the military does is but one way. In 1923 after the military took the flag off the fields of conflict during WW I (never tell the enemy where you are!) there was a major push by the civilian population to be able to display the flag. This practice was reserved ONLY FOR GOVERNMENT buildings, i.e. post office, courthouse, schools, etc. So Congress sat down and came up with an appropriate way for the CIVILIANS to respectfully display the flag and how to respectfully act in the presence of the flag. Flag ceremonies are never "incorrect" if people take time to do it respectfully. So where's the right and wrong come in? A lot of times it has become confusing and even the US Flag Code of 1923 has been changed over the years. Folding the flag in a triangle is a military protocol, same as flying the flag "backwards" on the right sleeve of a uniform. On the other hand ANY US CITIZEN can have a flag draped coffin. That's why the protocol is in the US Flag Code written for civilians. When @@KenD500 asked for a citation on the practices, it is pretty much impossible because many of the protocols have been blended and are customarily made up as one goes along. This is why the BSA folds the flag triangularly in the military protocol manner, but it is not "wrong" to fold it in a square either as long as it is done respectfully. Displaying a flag horizontally over the ground is a major NO-NO according to the US Flag Code, but people do it all the time because for one thing, they have never read the Code. Clothing made of the flag is also a Code no-no. It is my recommendation that whatever protocol is used, one should first consult the US Flag Code before teaching one's boys about the proper way of displaying the Flag. Just last summer I had a situation with a BSA camp director that was doing the flag ceremony incorrectly according to the US Flag Code . I read it verbatim to him. But I was flat out told me to mind my own business. I for one find it difficult to support or even respect BSA personnel with that mind set. A phone call to their council office was made the week after camp. The camp program director (30 year military retiree) was as angry as I was and corrected the problem. Scout Salute command is Present Arms in the military and "Two" is Order Arms. Where Two came from no one really knows. And the real kicker.... When not in full uniform (including pants) the scout should take off his head gear and place his hand over his heart. Like that ever happens. I know of troops that routinely teach the boys that are wearing "Class-B" uniforms to use the hand salute. That my friends, is reserved only for US military veterans. When did scouts rise to the level of equality to our veterans?

It is customary. The color guard is normally in motion when the flags are being brought into the room or onto the field. That is when the command to salute is given for the audience. The color guard does not walk and salute. Those carrying the flags do not have a hand free to salute anyway. Once the flag is presented, there is no command for the color guard to salute before the pledge. They can show full respect by retaining the "at attention" position. Because they are members of the honor guard for the flag, their allegiance is assumed and does not need to be pledged. When the flag is retired and folded, the members of the color guard have more important tasks of retiring the flag and getting it folded than standing there doing a salute while others try and fold the flag. While everyone has their own ideas as to how it is done, it customary for the color guard to fulfill their obligations without their attention drawn away in the ceremony. It is customary to fold the flag in a triangle, but like other customary protocols it is NOT WRITTEN ANYWHERE this is the proper way of folding the flag. So, if one ever finds such an official reference, I would really like to see it.

First of all welcome to the forum. I think you may have set a new record. It used to be the newbies got a bit of slack until they figured out the ropes, but I guess someone wasn't impressed with your honesty. I for one tend to agree with you. Get out there and practice all you want. Practice isn't the same as a flag ceremony in my book, but practice is good in case one ever gets called upon to do a ceremony some day. It's all for the boys and still, there are those that somehow tend to deduce things in a way you have described. I hope you continue to post your thoughts on the forum and ignore the dissenters, we seem to have our fair share of them..

It is quite possible for a Cub Scout to put in his entire Cub career at den meetings and pack meetings where the flags are all done indoors and outings without a flag ceremony such as going to visit a museum. Whereas there are those that would expect some added "intent" to the requirement, it is my belief that sometime during their Cub career that they participate in an outdoor flag ceremony and see a flag go up the flag pole, not just stuck in a stand next to a table. That in itself is something special for those packs that don't do much outside. Having the boys do the actual color guard routine? Where does it say that is expected? Where in the Cub Scout program is that taught? It sounds as if all the added hoopla is something that is reserved to be taught in Boy Scouts in the TF requirements. I'm not for looking to short-cut any requirement/expectation spelled out in the BSA advancement and award programs. I am a stickler in this regard. I don't make paper Eagles. But this requirement where the boy needs to be in the color guard is more than stretching it. The whole den marches up to the flag pole and salutes and says the Pledge while 2 of the boys actually raise the flag? How is that any different than standing in the audience? When will the boys find time to run 100 boys in the pack through the ceremony 50 times? These "added" requirements just don't make any sense. Where was the first time anyone saw and participated in an outdoor flag raising? It doesn't happen in anyone's family, even if they have a flag pole. Doesn't happen in school classrooms, the flag is probably not even presented, just hung somewhere. Doesn't happen in churches. Doesn't happen on Memorial Day services, it's already half-mast by the time the ceremony starts. Doesn't happen at sporting events, the flag is already up the pole. So now one can easily understand why it is important for your Cub Scouts to simply stand in the crowd and see something that for the most part he may never have seen before, even if a couple of adults go out and raise the flag. To me, if one is going to read the "intent" of the requirement, this is where I place my emphasis. Couple that process with a good bugler (No, I don't expect the Cubs to have a bugler) and you have an impressive ceremony that every Cub should experience by simply standing in the audience and participating. Oh, I forgot to add. If done correctly, it is customary the members of the color guard do not salute nor say the pledge.

Shoot, did it again. Posted in the wrong thread again. I caught it and moved it before my "edit" disappeared. My apologies.

Welcome to the forum!

Maybe no one else noticed, but I don't think this boy is all that interested in the rules and regulations. He can still cross over the bridge and take a little break until his birthday or the end of June which ever comes first. He'll be registered as a Scout and still attend Boy Scout meetings FOR FUN as a visitor until then. Oh, but he won't be able to earn any Scout-FC requirements until he officially joins!!! (Please refer back to the first sentence of this post).

If one doesn't stand, doesn't salute, doesn't pledge his allegiance, then one would think he did not participate in the ceremony. Otherwise he has. One must be careful not to add to the requirements such as march in, carry a flag, etc. All it says is participate.

Seriously???? And this is why this "rank advancement" requirements are basic BS in my book. The boy shows up. He has fun. He has a good attitude and we're going to punish him with no crossing-over because he didn't do all the stuff to make the adults feel good about not pencil whipping his "advancement". Well, there is NO ADVANCEMENT IN CUB SCOUTS! Along with having fun, if they wish they may work towards an award (did I mention this is not advancement, but just an award?????) The boy will some day move from Cub Scouts to Boy Scouts, THAT IS THE CROSS-OVER THE BRIDGE THINGY! It doesn't make any difference what awards he has received, whether or not he had 75% attendance or any of the other adult created rules to punish the boy for not paying attention. Arts and crafty stuff might not be his goal in life, but maybe being with his brother on Boy Scout campouts might. He might be a late bloomer, but if one turns him off from the program just when it might catch on, it's a total failure on the part of the adults, not the boy. Maybe he'll just do Boy Scouts the same way.... show up and have fun. I'd take him in my troop any day!!! If this boy was Tiger through Webelos, never was awarded any of the age appropriate awards and did not do his AOL stuff. So what. He was there, he had fun, it's time to cross-over from Cub Scouts to Boy Scouts. If the pack won't do it. Ask the troop to cross him over, a good SM will be happy to do that to welcome him into the troop!

If a form letter of reference is not returned by the SM the process is halted until one is secured.

And as a SM, I would never give out such information to anyone about any of my scouts.

@@jamskinner First of all, welcome to the forum! I believe you are correct in that the LDS would be less likely to be sued than if they did not stay with the BSA. No court is going to take on an issue that is exclusively church related. I have never heard of any church member suing their church because they were upset with their leadership.. However, once connected to the BSA, it opens up the possibility and in this issue, even quite probably. If the LDS leadership can set up who does and who doesn't lead their units it's nobody's business but their own. If they are BSA units with certain policies it opens up LDS to a lawsuit. I've been quite surprised the LDS has tolerated the BSA as long as it has.