Stosh

If left to their own choices, patrols naturally seem to gravitate towards similar aged groupings. Mixed patrols tend to be the result of adult directives. While aged based doesn't have to be exactly locked in stone, where only 11 year olds are in one patrol, 12 in another, but one never sees 16 and 17 year olds wanting to hang out with 11 and 12 year olds. My self selected aged based patrols tended to not vary beyond a one maybe two year difference. Those "older" boys did well working with their younger patrol members, they didn't need to be mentored by 17 year olds, the new boys can be mentored very well by a 13 year old.

Then his buddies roll up their sleeves and make sure they get them to Philmont or Jambouree. Help other people at all times.... that includes your best friends/buddies in the patrol. Once one gets to that level in the patrols/troop, then some of the MY Eagle, MY scouting experience, MY money in MY scout account.... MY.... starts going away. It's that kind of thinking that makes the best Paper Eagles. Until a scout begins to quit worrying about himself and starts thinking about others, he's never going to figure out what Scouting is really all about. For sure, they'll never figure out what servant leadership is all about. Once one has a kid come around on that point, the next step is to work on his parents, too.

It may not be the end of the exodus either......

Scouting is a brotherhood, one hangs together with the patrol members, and they specifically take care of their buddy. EXCEPT when it comes to the money, then all bets are off and MY money doesn't count when it comes to any cooperative efforts and if you don't work at selling stuff, you can stay home or pay up. How does one get past the "Show Scout spirit" requirement with an attitude like that?

Maybe we can recycle the veterans that fought and died to make sure that scrap of material gets put up on a flag pole some day, too. I'm thinking over the past couple of hundred years there were a lot of people that got hurt for the sake of that symbol and the freedom that the scrap of material symbolizes is for real. Sorry guys, I simply flat out reject the flippant attitude some have for this particular scrap of material. Lest we forget. (which seems to be happening on a fairly "common" level.)

I don't think you need apologize, I don't think there's anyone here on the forum that thinks the SM and BOR members have their heads and hearts in the right place. PERIOD!

I'm thinking a BOR cannot make judgments about what is siigned off. If the SM signed off on the leadership requirement then it's a done deal. If he has to approve it before hand, he has a control issue going on here. None of the boys need SM approval to show scout spirit, when did it become necessary to do so for showing leadership. A POSITION OF RESPONSIBILITY can be successfully done without showing any leadership at all. This SM needs to be educated in the BSA program. I had a 15 year old boy with some maturity issues going on and he had all his information into the council office for his Eagle, but the council was insisting on a form filled out by me saying I wholeheartedly support him being an Eagle. I tossed the first one away because it isn't necessary for the boys Eagle according to BSA rules. But the EBOR wouldn't convene without it. He came to me and I told him he had 6 months to prove to me he was Eagle quality through his leadership. He held no POR, he rolled up his sleeves and for 6 months worked with all the other boys to improve their leadership in the troop. Seriously, it kinda surprised me what he was able to do and at the end of 6 months I would easily wholeheartedly support him being an Eagle. Anything tangible? Nope, just a subjective observation of a kid doing what he thought was good leadership. It was.

I don't think so. We all believe BSA is a fairly good program for our youth. Some units do better than others at providing that program. But I think there are also many other programs out there that can do equally well with an outdoor type program as the BSA does and I'm thinking that it is taking a bite out of BSA's membership because what was once a program that everyone emulated it is now just another competitive program for youth of today. These St. George kids are no different than the Pioneers of the Lutheran persuasion or the TrailLifeUSA of the non-denominationals. GSUSA is beginning to see some importance in an outdoor program, KAMO is a new organization in the upper midwest that is taking hold. 4-H is also making a comeback. BSA continues to decline...... It's kinda good that other organizations are picking up the slack as BSA slowly bleeds out due to it's lack of various programatic problems. To think that a group is "just" father/son camping implies that BSA is just a bunch of latent adolescent adults running around in the woods playing with dorky boys that maybe someday will do an Eagle project and get their name in the paper. It's kinda too bad BSA is ending up just another after school youth program.

Especially in this day and age one wonders how much of what this woman's mother experienced is what a lot of adult leaders needing to get up to speed make it into the Boy Scout program.

Everyone's different. I got my beads in the mail. I put them on and that was that. My beads have been to Philmont, Sea Base, BWCA, and walked my scouting career for over 20 years. They are now worn by one of my Real Eagle scouts who will now have to maintain that journey. I have no idea where they will go, but they will be close to his heart. I put my beads on him when his new wife was beaded and there was no ceremony scheduled for him. It was kinda a teary eyed event when I did so. Well I received his packet and pulled out the beads which I now wear and sent the rest on to him. I just put his beads on that that was that. Who knows where they will go, but they will be close to my heart. It's not the ceremony that is important, it's knowing where the beads are and where they will go that is.

I have been pushing recruiting on the Council level for 6th graders for years and still no help in this area.

Humanity as individuals is basically interested in self preservation. However, humanity is also interested in intercooperation among the individuals of the species. Obviously procreation is not all that important to the individuals' welfare, but it does promote the continuance of the species which tends to be a natural tendency as well. But in order for that to happen, cooperation between individuals must occur or dominance will need to prevail. History has shown both avenues have been employed over the years. Tribal codes of mutual protection for cooperative individuals have been seen as the first step in preserving a more "civilized" approach to preserving the species than the dominance approach. It hasn't done much for extinction of the dominance model over the long run, but it's still a preferable option for many.

Maybe they just aspire to be Godly men of character for our society as a whole and to lead young men into an adulthood of faith charity and concern for others around them. There are others out there who aspire to greatness based on their religion, not on a set of rules set up by an independent program promoted by people who like the outdoors. I don't think Mother Theresa was ever a Girl Scout and I don't think any of the popes were ever in Boy Scouts from any country. Most the men who walked on the moon were Eagle scouts.... but not all. We've had a lot of good presidents along the way, not all were in Scouting. Scouting, even in it's ideal state, is not the be-all, end-all of character and leadership programs. Others out there have done just as good if not better.

I wear neckers on hot days whether I'm wearing a scout uniform or not. Does that mean I'm not in compliance with BSA because I'm a registered scouter and wearing a necker with non-uniform apparel?

Those that make up their own moral codes do so based on the preservation of one's own self. I don't try to kill you if you don't try and kill me, okay? Now that's part of my moral code. So as long as I don't do certain things, my survival as an individual will continue. That's not a valid moral code sufficient for community and civilization. It works good for that individual, but not the next guy down the road because his survival "code" is different than mine. His ethics is based on the evolutionary principle of survival of the fittest and if I become a threat or a perceived threat, his code would mandate my removal.

It's always interesting how we find it so easy to feel our understanding is so much more precise than the next guy's. In World War II we as a nation fought with England and France, but we also fought with Germany and Japan. Now there's a sentence in pure and simple English that means absolutely nothing unless one knows of alternative sources of information. And there's the rub. People who use out-of-context statements end up saying absolutely nothing because in a large number of circumstances their alternative sources of information are from who-knows-where.

IF... and that's a big IF, units did follow the aims and methods of scouting, it may very well be described as "scouting", but most troops I have come in contact with appear to be run no differently than any other youth program out there where the adults do the actual leading. Those units are called scouting and yet don't make it into the criteria you mention. Well, when I was in the ministry, my youth group would spend a week in "camp" at a state park somewhere and would focus on a retreat concept of prayer and Bible study. We did the orienteering stuff, the swimming, canoeing, etc. a lot of what is done by any other outdoor program and had a lot of dynamics found in a lot of scouting units of today. Scout Oath (baptismal convenant), Law (religious ethics), and such gave the same kind of structural continuity as a scout unit. About the the only real difference was the uniforms and the fact that the participants didn't need to hunt up camping equipment to go. Bible Camps have been just as popular over the years for years as Boy and Girl Scout camps. They both meet the need for an outdoor adventure experience for the youth.

We always offer to return the grommets to the family. A lot of times these flags were once on the casket of a veteran. As far as grommets having any significance other than sentimental is kind of a non-issue for me. Sometimes people take the Flag "apart" before burning... Well in my book, once the Flag is "taken apart" it is no longer the Flag, just a bunch of rags of no significance. If someone came up to me with a square piece of red cotton cloth and asked me what it was, I would say it's a square piece of red cotton cloth. I really seen no point in wearing grommets from flags on one's uniform. For all anyone knows, those grommets could have very well come from the dining fly.

@@Basementdweller Missed ya, welcome back.

And without knowing the full extent of the programming, I would find it difficult to know whether it was "scouting" or not. There's a lot that BSA does that I wouldn't count as "scouting" too.

Yeah, I guess you're right. If I were looking for female role models, the first place I would look is BOY SCOUTS of America.

It can mean anything one wants it to mean. I really don't think one can formalize it into any set definition. I think the line is wide enough to know that any scout that once reaching the rank of Eagle and commences to sit back and do nothing will not fulfill any leadership consideration for this requirement. If, however, they stay active, help out, mentor and guide others, pitches in and roles up his sleeves on the heavy lifting, really doesn't need any SM approval to meet the requirement. It kinda "goes without saying" kind of thing.

No one says scouting is all that bad, but to make the comment that the Catholic program is JUST a father/son camping program pretty much makes it sound like it's a bad thing. I think any time father/sons do things together it is far better for the boys' development than learning to tie knots and sit through Citizenship MB classes. TrallLifeUSA with it's emphasis on religion, this Catholic program with it's emphasis on father/son time, and yes co-ed youth ministry programs are all excellent competition to the BSA with certain things they do that can out-compete with the watered down "adventures" and prestigious accolades only a very small percentage ever acquire which the BSA provides. BSA is a good program, but it has a long way to go to being the excellent program it used to be.

The mole hill is nothing more than that which determines the models young minds wish to emulate. Biological and environmental factors all play into the development of young people. What role model is BOY Scouts of America providing their membership of BOYS? Since the onset of the feminist movement of the 1960's that role has become more and more obscure for our youth. Over the years I have seen more and more young boy questioning their roles due to such confusion. In the Vatican Scouts thread the comment was made that the Catholic program was nothing more than father/son camping, as if that were a bad thing and only BSA has the proper approach with co-ed leadership with gender blending behavior. I don't know if I had to do it again I would want my son having to deal with those political agendas during his developmental years. Maybe he and I would just do more camping together.......

I'm a little on JoeBob's side as to how did men teach their sons to be men before BSA came along. I think that as an alternative to BSA this program sounds like it would be pretty good within the structure of the Catholic Church in America. The Church recognizes the need for strong male models and what better person than a son's father to show him the way. It strengthens the marriage with a strong male partner and the children grow up watching a relationship every day, not just at a once a week meeting and a monthly outing with men who are not necessarily their fathers. I'm thinking a father can have more positive influence on a son than most SM's out there and will offer a better understanding of what it means to be a man in our world today than what a female SM could ever dream of offering him. Being a father is not something one gets by achieving rank in the BSA program. Just because you're an Eagle doesn't mean anything when it comes to being a great dad.