Stosh

@@Hedgehog

I don't think anyone thinks it's a done deal, but the discussion revolves around the value of whether or not the deal is all that beneficial for the boys in the first place. If boys are going out into the back country they should have enough training in S-FC to handle emergency situations. If not, maybe the issue is not more training but less pencil whipping. If the adults aren't qualified to train S-FC first aid, then they shouldn't be heading out into the back country either. But if S-FC skills are up to snuff, what more is WFA going to add that will make a difference 2-3 day into a trek that can't be handled with S-FC skills? I'm not hearing any conversation on that and that would be more important than some $150 certification process designed by lawyers to avoid legal negligence which wouldn't necessarily be prevented by any amount of training.

It might be a struggle to break a rule at first, but after a lot of practice, it's really easy, just like anything else in life.

I wonder how long an Eagle Mentor pin would last on mom's police uniform? Would it be longer than on dad's firefighter's uniform? or Uncle Joe's Naval Reserve uniform? or maybe older brother's Peter's US Marine dress blues. Don't wear your green WB necker at the first session or better yet show up for WB with no uniform and see how long that lasts. Uniform standards in the BSA are non-existent. People wear what they want to wear and their sense of BSA pride in that uniform simply does not exist. Someone should have told this scout that full field uniform is not proper to be doing heavy park clean up in. A scout that shows how much pride he has in his uniform while doing his eagle project can be seen in this example. In case anyone wishes to know, the first picture is of a scout doing his Eagle project while I was SM, the second picture is one of the boys after I left. Attitude of the adults does have an affect on the boys.

I understand the value of extended first aid training and from the perspective of one who just dished out $150 for the course it will mean a lot to you. But stop and think for a moment. CPR certification is not needed for S-FC, but it is for WFC class. Okay, you are two days into the back country. SM goes down with a heart attack, Does that mean the boys that don't go for help are to do CPR for the 2 days it's going to be necessary to be done until help arrives? No, in this case WFA is of no value. By the way, I can guarantee the average person will get 20 to maybe 30 minutes of doing CPR before they are totally exhausted. Unless you are backpacking with a defib unit and it's effective, the person simply isn't going to survive. Even if there's cell phone reception where you are, 2 days into the back country will take more than the Golden Hour for rescue personnel to get to the site for rescue. If a boy is bitten by a rattle snake and took a full dose of venom. You're two days out, what can be done at that point? One doesn't need any special training to determine the problem, and there's nothing beyond S-FC that will be of any benefit. A boy is burned badly by a backpack stove flare up. What beyond S-FC is going to be done while waiting for help? A boy cuts his finger off while filleting a fish. If one doesn't stop the bleeding as taught by S-FC, the boy will bleed to death long before help arrives. I haven't taken WFA, but please inform me of what is taught that is beyond S-FC that would actually be of benefit 2 days into a back country trek? I'm not asking to be snarky, I'm just super curious. Bites, stings, cuts, choking, CPR, are all covered, what am I missing? And here's another bit of information the gloss over in the WFA training .... once you are certified, you are no longer held to the Good Samaritan Laws, you are certified to a higher standard of training and legally are held accountable to that as well. Like the South African Scout commercial, the training I learned many years ago is no longer certified, but I still know the basics and as a Good Samaritan I might be able to help someone in a medical emergency. But I am held accountable to the level of any average untrained person in the crowed who also is not certified. I'm just not seeing $150 worth of benefit of any program other than a good solid understanding of S-FC first aid.

Five rows of knots on the uniform, red, white, blue epaulets, mentor pins, parent pins, fake eagle feather in their hats, NYLT "beads", hat cords, non-official hats at flag ceremonies, are but a few of the baubles worn by ADULTS thinking they are cool additions to the plain old official uniform. Over the past 35+ years, that's but a sample of the more gaudy things they have done. Even they don't tuck in the shirt, don't wear complete uniforms, etc. Obviously their political point of self-indulgence is not appreciated by scouters universally who do take care to try and follow the methods of scouting. Shall we now continue with what adults allow when it comes to uniforming the boys? Either one takes a stand to do it right and ignore all the ones that don't take it seriously or they remain silent and become complicit with the improper actions of others. I'm beginning to think the reason the boys are under the impression the uniform is a joke is because it has become that because of the attitudes of those what wear it. When one sees the US Marine dress blues, it evokes an image of courage, dedication, honor and a whole lot of other words that the wearer is proud to symbolize. Why is it that today's youth look at the various Banana Republic Generals posing as scout leaders and conclude that the BSA official Field Uniform and conclude that it is dorky? By the way the person who dinged me for suggesting the boys honor the civilian veteran hand salute by rendering the BSA scout salute only while in full uniform and the civilian hand over the heart when not, would have had the courage to defend their position. I would love to know the rationale why the Boy Scouts of America when not in uniform are afforded the same privilege as US military veterans who have served our country and earned that right.

@@SeattlePioneer you are correct, the youth are at greater danger driving/riding to the back country trail head than they are on the trail. There was a big push nationally to make play grounds safer. No more pavement, no exposed bolts, etc. Now the only deaths/injuries the kids have is getting to the playground. Of course extensive studies showing playground deaths and playground injuries stayed pretty much the same.

@@TAHAWK I like that ribbon idea for the scouters with scouts. That way they can hang it on the temp pocket for special occasions and be perfectly in sync with the uniform process. They could also take it off when one goes on outings so as to no lose them as well. I'm thinking the ribbon is less expensive than the jac-shirt which is also a good alternative for the pins/patches, etc., too. However, it can get a tad rank in July summer camp wearing a red wool coat. I think the neckband idea is probably the best idea. It can be made from ribbon at a cost far less than those that are manufactured. It also simplifies the awkward moment when the scout realizes in front of a crowd of people mom is wearing clothing that is going to make pinning it on her a tad bit embarrassing.

A lot depends on the type of adventure one is providing the scouts. Philmont is not really all that remote. In an emergency, 4 of the best runners having dropped packs you reach help rather quickly. However, fly-in remote fishing camp is a different story. AT is well traveled and may even have cell coverage in parts, canoeing the Yukon is a whole different animal. Back country Yellowstone? Whole different story. 25 miles into a 50 miler in BWCA could mean a day or two travel for help. One can't paddle as fast as a scout can run if necessary. So a lot of fire and fury on the subject, but in only a very few cases is it really going to make any difference. In those cases, the extra $150 to have some extra training to increase the comfort and confidence level would be nice. Also, cross certification means nothing. Anyone with MD after his/her name may mean that person is a trauma ER doctor which would do well IF he were in a fully staffed and equipped ER trauma center otherwise it might mean that person is a psychiatrist who hasn't seen a trauma patient since residency rotation 30 years ago. Give me an EMT over a MD any day.

I take it not everyone is familiar with the definition of Fuzzy Logic. A quick Google search will get everyone up to speed. Here's how it works. Go out on the beach, sit down and scoop up a handful of sand. What do you have? Yep, a handful of sand. Take the tweezers out of your first aid kit and carefully pick one grain of sand off that handful and drop back on the beach. Now what do you have? Still looks like a handful of sand, but logically is it or isn't it a handful of sand? At this point the SM has one mentor pin on his uniform collar. Is he still in full uniform? Okay, with the tweezers take another grain of sand off the handful and drop it back on the beach. Now what do you have? still looks like a handful of sand, but now it has twice as much removed than before. At this point the SM has two mentor pins on his uniform collar. Is he still in full uniform? So the logic demands, at what point of removing grains of sand does one finally conclude that they no longer have a handful of sand? How many grains did they remove? Once you get to that point, you'll have your answer. I am standing there with scout socks, pants with belt, shirt tucked in with all patches in the right place, necker, and hat. Am I in full uniform? Yep according to BSA inspection sheet. So I get WB and now wear a different necker than everyone else. Am I uniform with everyone else? I have a hat but don't wear it, am I in full uniform? I have olive drab socks, but they weren't provided by BSA supply, am I in full uniform? What one ends up with is Fuzzy Logic. Everyone sitting around arguing points that either don't make a bit of difference, most people don't know or even care and for the most part aren't uniform to begin with so the whole idea of uniforming in the BSA is a total waste of time and money. BSA doesn't require a uniform of anyone anyway. So I'll answer my own question, "What's a 'class-B'?" Anything anyone wants it to be because you might be the only one that thinks it matters. Of course that equally applies to the "class-A" uniform as well, so it would seem.

that's what the ignore button is for.

I wish I could give you more up green arrows, but the software only allows one. Your boys allowed you to see the beauty of the PL's running the patrol method! This is exactly what I teach and your boys figured it out on their own. Kudos to your boys and to the adults that trusted them to do what turned out to be a great thing for your troop.

As a former EMT, let me ask the question.... A boy breaks his leg, SM with S-FC training splints it and treats for shock, sends 4 boys back down the trail 20 miles for help. What more is the SM going to do except keep the boy calm for the next day or two until medical rescue personnel arrive? And as morbid as it sounds, if it's a compound fracture and he's bleeding out, the SM using his S-FC training, applies pressure bandages and before the boy bleeds completely out, applies a tourniquet as a last ditch to save his life. What more would a leader with WFC do? Help is still 2 days away. I seriously don't see what WFC is going to accomplish that S-FC won't do just as well given the circumstances. Oh? I see, it's just legalese fine print for Irving to CYA in case someone gets hurt on a scout outing that they can say they have pedigree first aid people on-site that can't do jack to help their kid in an emergency, but they have the paperwork done. Am I close?

Excellent example of Fuzzy Logic.

Dang, don'tcha just hate it when the new guy on the block starts asking questions that seasoned scouters stumble and stammer on? Welcome @@SouthScout, excellent question a Web II DL should be asking because it will make a ton of difference on the development of your boys in their Boy Scsout career. The PL lets his boys know what's going on because it is his job to take care of his boys. How he goes about this is up to him and the style of leadership he is working on developing. What the SM is doing with the parents for communication is irrelevant because it has nothing to do with the development of the scout. Nagging, controlling and pampering parents only work on making Paper Eagles. I had two boys in my Venturing Crew that would stand there with a blank stare as I would let them know information about up coming events that were scheduled by others that we wished to participate in. Their mother wrote it all down in a calendar/date book, then turned around and did the same thing for the other boy in another calendar/date book. The boys did nothing at this point because mom would make sure they got to where they needed to be when. Both boys ended up Eagle with Vigil honors in OA and mom kept up this process until they turned 18 and went off to college. This was a major disservice she did for her kids. Both boys dropped out and went to work after a year. The Eagle notice on the college application was a total waste of time and effort. My troop does not have "troop" meetings. Our "troop" meetings are really a gathering of patrols once a week. The only thing we do as a "troop" is opening and closing flags. Other than that, the PL's run the show. We had 25+ boys, 4 patrols and a large room with 4 corners. Adults had to find their own space here and there, because the boys "owned the room." The middle of the room was off limits to the adults because that's where any games, or activities that took up space was reserved for. After a few years of this process, it was obvious that the SM (me) wasn't doing enough leadership and was expecting too much leadership from the boys, and was asked to leave. The ASM that took over, went back to the adult-led, troop-method approach and the numbers of boys dropped accordingly. The last time I heard they had too many boys for one patrol, but not really enough for 2, so the SM led, troop method worked out just fine for them. So, ignore what the adults are doing for communication. If you wish your boys to learn to be self-responsible and self-reliant, focus on what the boys are doing to keep everyone in the game. Start with the PL's.

Let me get this straight. Summer camp, no WFA, certified leaders? Boys can't go. .... Yep, sounds like something BSA would require. Adults can't camp 300' away, that's too far to be effective if an accident should occur. I can hear the orchestra tuning up for my Swan Song already. At one point in my life I was a Nationally Registered Emergency Medical Technician-Ambulance.and state certified Emergency Rescue Technician. Even after many years in the field (15 years) I think I could comfortably handle any medical emergency that comes my way in the back country? Snake bite? treat for shock, send boys for help. Broken leg, make comfortable, treat for shock, send boys for help, Seriously people, other than basic first aid we teach S-FC, what is there to know that in the back country one can do without dragging an ambulance down the trail with you? So, riddle me this Joker, what first aid is necessary beyond FC Training and FC MB will the adult leader need to know before the EMT's arrive? That information, if any is what everyone is going to pay $150 ever two years to learn. Yeah, right!

And when your boys stand there and salute during flag ceremonies, in slipshod partial uniforms and "class-B" t-shirts not officially recognized by BSA, that salute they give is reserved only for veterans who have faithfully served in the armed forces of our country. Sorry, but my boys are taught that it's okay to show up in civilian clothing including field uniform shirt and blue jeans, but when not in uniform, one salutes with their hand over their heart out of respect and honor due our veterans. I may break and bend BSA rules along the way, but The basis for this discussion is not just a BSA policy. I personally find the use of hand salutes by non-veterans basically disgusting.... yeah, that's an appropriate word for it... as do my boys. Yes, my boys use the civilian salute (hand over heart) if not in FULL uniform.

As long as one quotes me, I'll take the time to respond And sadly that is a prime example of how to develop and run an adult-led program. The adults, well, lead and the boys, well, they just follow along. I say that premise as the basis for a leadership development program for young boys will not produce one genuine leader in the group and instead will take away any and all natural leadership motivation if there was any to begin with. After 13 years as ASM this is the attitude that made it VERY easy to walk away and get involved in a program that actually taught youth leadership skills to the boys Sorry, If I were ASM in a troop run like this, it would very easy to just walk away. How do I know? Because I have done it before. I will not be part of any process that steals opportunities away from the boys developing solid leadership skills by doing it for them and telling them they have to follow your lead and directives instead. That's not what BSA is all about in any literature I have come across.

If BSA wants to keep boys from going out into the woods for adventure, this is how to go about it.

But that wasn't an answer to the OP question. We have a topic asking what if the BSA went co-ed, but this isn't the one. There are a ton of organizations out there that are co-ed. Maybe there should be one that isn't so as to give a choice to our young men. Otherwise one ends up with Henry Ford's perfectly practical solution to the color of automobiles: the customer can have any color they want as long as it's black. Our young men can have any male leadership development program they want as long as it's co-ed. Maybe I'm losing it in my old age, but that really sounds stupid to me even when I say it out loud to myself.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with selling Boy Scout popcorn.....?

My wife saw this thread and told me flat out that if the boys go off for the weekend and end up missing meals or getting lousy food or maybe going the whole weekend without food at all, that come Sunday noon when they come home, the'll appreciate mom's cooking that much more. She raised four kids and once she sent them off for the weekend for some activity she figured the adults would keep them safe and she'd see them on Sunday. You're trusting the program and the adults supervising their safety so it doesn't matter what time they eat. If one is worried about what time they eat, keep them home and feed them at the time most appropriate for them

Show me in any BSA literature where it defines what a "class-B" uniform is and I'll acknowledge it. Otherwise it is nothing more than non-BSA clothing that someone made up and on their own and defines it as "class-B". I think it is disingenuous to even suggest there even is such a thing as a BSA "class-B" uniform and mislead others into thinking there is such a thing. It really draws the focus on one's honesty in the process. So with no BSA literature to define it, no BSA recognition of such an item of uniforming and everyone thinking they "know" what it is, I'm going to once again ask the question: What's a "class-B"? Feel free to cut and paste BSA's definition in your response. Thank you for your interest in this mythological item of clothing.

For Shame @@JoeBob, really? deflating the tires? One call to the Boy scouts nearby who have a portable pressure tank handy and with every popcorn sale will inflate their tires for them. At least you didn't suggest black grease under the handles of all the driver side car doors. That would not be good Scout PR at all. That would be real vandalism. Or using liquid shoe polish to write, "I'm a casino loser." on the back windows of the cars would be unscout like, too. On the other hand if such shenanigans were to get seriously out of hand in that part of the park, the boys could always sell "protection" and watch out for the cars of those who bought popcorn...... on a regular basis.... That might be an offer they couldn't refuse....if ya know what I mean.

Seriously, I don't see anything wrong with selling popcorn to everyone as they step on and off the bus. The buses show up on a regular time table so the boys will know exactly when their shift needs to show up to sell. It's the best of both worlds, The boys sell popcorn the the gamblers take their chances with each sales pitch. If it were me, I'd pay my winnings to get those pesky munchkins out of my face every time I took the bus to the casino.