Stosh

,,,, said the Captain of the Titanic.

I'd second that. Combine S-FC, FA MB, and a bit of extra for prolonged waiting for medical assistance and that's all that one really needs, except maybe any legalese stuff to help you from getting sued.

That's their training, what about their experience? I was an American Heart Association CPR Instructor. I taught professionals. I was involved in 14 CPR attempts and was unsuccessful with all of them. All of the calls were more than 30 minutes from advanced medical assistance. 30 minutes is a long time. The longest I ever had to attend to a trauma victim was a car accident in a blizzard. We managed to get back to the local fire station, but there was no way we were going to make it to a hospital. One had head trauma and the other a broken back. We monitored them for 27 hours before we could transport to the hospital and then it was with snow plow escort. Even then we were in radio contact with the hospital ER but I don't know how much that really helped. Like I said, being book taught and living the situation are two entirely different things. When they went into the field as Wilderness First Responders did they carry more equipment than you will? And how much time passed between when the injury occurred and they were notified? First Responders by definition do not transport patients. I'm thinking there's a lot more to the story than what's being said, and maybe others need to think that way as well. However, when all is said and done, I truly hope you never have to use what you've been taught.

I'm pretty sure the picture was posed for the photographer. He had safety glasses, ear plugs and gloves for every scout who showed up and worked on the project and the 3 men (one of them in the picture) that cut down trees had additional leather protection, high quality ear protection, face shields and hard hats besides to go with their chainsaw work.. The only people who were not in safety equipment were the ladies that hosted in the food tent.

This is why I like the dynamic of patrol accounts where the boys in the patrols work together for a common goal. The benefit is a shared benefit and not singularly personal.

Any emergency training is good for building confidence and allowing someone to at least give someone a chance of survival in an emergency situation. In that respect I have no problem with WFA. No, I have not taken the course, but after looking at what is covered in the curriculum, I am in no hurry to take it. It would not offer me $150 worth of new material. Yes, it's going to be impressive to the novice, it's going to be quite a confidence booster and unfortunately it will often give a false sense of security. What people can do to their bodies is unbelievable to say the least. 15 years running with an EMT service in the rural areas of the country might not sound all that challenging as an urban setting, but cutting a young kid out of a corn picker in the dark can be as much fun as a gunshot from a mugging. Crawling around in the rain in the dark looking for kids that were thrown out of the car in chest high weeds is not something they make TV shows out of either. The one of the worse thing in the world is not knowing what to do in an emergency situation. Standing there watching someone suffer and being helpless to do anything is not what life should be about. But on the other hand training will take care of that....... BUT Another one of the worse things in the world is knowing that without more skill and knowledge than what you can provide in an emergency situation means that you're going to stand there and watch and be helpless to do anything about it anyway. Training is one thing, time is even more important. A fully equipt ambulance staffed with nurses and highly skilled trauma doctor would find it very difficult to have to wait even a day or two before engaging the patient. Time is not an ally. As an EMT I was used to dealing with minutes (we were 20 minutes from the nearest medical facility and 45 minutes from LifeFlight and advanced trauma care. 20 and 45 minutes made the difference between life and death in a lot of those cases. I had a case where I pinched off the severed femoral artery of an 8 year old girl who was in a car accident. We didn't wait for the ambulance (20 minutes out and 20 minutes back), but took my car and headed for the hospital hoping to cut those minutes in half.. We met the ambulance and transferred, but I held the artery all the way to pre-surgery where they clamped it off and I could let go. Not only did I save her life, but when dealing with just minutes I saved her leg as well. If that had been a jackknife slip into a boy's thigh, 3 days before medical help can arrive? I know how much the odds would be stacked against me and no amount of WFA is going to be of any value whatsoever. Apply a tourniquet and hope for the best is all you can do, you have just made the decision to sacrifice the leg for a chance to save the boy's life. You will live with that decision for the rest of your life. That technique is taught in S-FC and FA-MB. EMTs are trained NOT to do it because it is a technique of last resort. WFA is a great beginning but look at the situation realistically. I just don't want WFA to leave the participants with a false sense of security or confidence and have them let their guard down. The only that that will keep your boys safe is prevention. I would much rather see a major course in that because I'm really afraid that WFA is going to be quite useless after the first 5-6 hours. It may be that the last resort is really the first resort depending on how far into the back country you are. Polling those who have taken the course will produce a certain set point of satisfaction. Polling those who have had to deal with trauma in the back country is going to produce a whole different set of satisfaction points...guaranteed. I guess my vantage point is a bit different from many of the others on the forum. It would be interesting to know how many of the instructors of WFA had had to actually deal with an actual case of what they are teaching about or whether or not they are just reading out of some book. It always reminds me of the ER doctor that got all over my case because the patient I brought in was covered with mud and I hadn't done anything to clean him up before bringing him into the sterile ER Room. Well, Doc, the car went off the road it was spring, the ditch was muddy, the car went upside down, windshield blew back onto the patient. After the FD cut the car open the best they could, we extricated him upside down kneeling in mud ourselves. We had all we could do to get a basic assessment let alone clean him up. The patient survived and the doctor got over what I had to say to him that day. Am I overly critical of the WFA curriculum or am I just aware of what is NOT covered that should be in such a program?

I don't think WFA involves much more than. 1) A boy hurts himself. 2) What can I do to make him comfortable for 2-3 days. 3) From my training what's his chance of survival? 4) If he doesn't make it, what's the name of a good lawyer. Let's face it, one is at the mercy of a lot of factors piled against you when you get beyond immediate or even somewhat quick medical rescue. Other than stopping the bleeding, there's really not much to know when you're 3 days out. Splinting a broken bone isn't going to improve a person's chance for survival. If it's a compound fracture, stop the bleeding. Remember if you do split it, after 3 days of swelling the circulation could have been cut off and now your liable for the loss of the limb. Instead of the misnomer of WFA, how about, "First Aid for those who will be waiting 3-5 days for medical assistance." Oooh, I diagnosed he has broken a rib. So what, you can't splint a broken rib. .... it punctured a lung.... now you are up S... Creek without a paddle and you still can't do anything about it. His lung collapsed..... the canoe just sank. As mentioned by others, Wilderness Safety would probably be a better course that teaches prevention of injuries because after the fact is too late.

Beg, borrow, but shy away from steal equipment, used, whatever, just to get by. I started 18 months ago and so far we have tents (used from another troop that bought new tents) military surplus packs and sleeping bags (totally a nice surprise). and go from there. The boys can learn to cook on a campfire, stoves will be nice down the road, but not necessary. Rain fly, again nice, but a cheap nylon tarp will work. The boys should be able to come up with some equipment of their own, if not, someone's out there that has a huge family circus tent you can used to get started. Put out the call to other units dumping old equipment. It doesn't need to be the best out of the box stuff to begin with. Just get the boys out into the woods and if you need something down the road it will become obvious as time passes. Remember a duct tape repaired tent is better than no tent. I'm still using canoes after 25 years that need the bottoms duct taped each day to keep the water out. Boys don't mind.

Or..... The youth leadership could identify the tasks hat need to be done and motivate their buddies to get it done. The first part of leadership training is to teach the boys to identify tasks so that they will do it instead of the adults. THEN the second part of the leadership training is to teach the boys to motivate the other boys into effective teamwork. Train and trust..... the responsibility of the effective SM. I would not try and motivate the boys into getting the camp packed up quickly if they hadn't been trained in doing so. But once they are trained, then the motivation part can start. BUT remember one is teaching the boys to motivate others so that the adults will get out of the way ASAP and let the boys lead and motivate without the interference of the adults. Once one gets to that point, then one will really understand what awesome is all about.

That's how I got through scouts as a youth.

Welcome to the forum @@skyfiiire. I guess I have never heard of that. I have heard where some units have submitted annual financial reports to the CO just like any other sub group would do and are audited by them as well.

From the US Flag Code: "The Salute To salute, all persons come to attention. Those in uniform give the appropriate formal salute. Citizens not in uniform salute by placing their right hand over the heart and men with head cover should remove it and hold it to left shoulder, hand over the heart. Members of organizations in formation salute upon command of the person in charge." So as I stated before, if one is in uniform they render the organization's salute. When they are not in uniform they place their hand over their heart. If one is wondering on the interpretation, what is the appropriate formal salute? Appropriate to the organization they represent. Otherwise I would think they would have simply stated the "Those in uniform give a hand salute." Appropriate indicates there are different types of formal salutes. Then one also needs to take into account what "Citizens not in uniform" means. What constitutes a civilian in uniform? Scouts? auxillaries? patriotic organizations? ?? It is clear there is a distinction between civilians in and civilians out of uniform...... None of this pertains to military and military veterans because the US Flag Code is intended solely for civilians.

Here's the $1,000,000 question! What if the boys won't lead. Let it be known that after 45+ years of working with youth, their patience level far exceeds that of most adults. They will take it to the limit and it will need to be quite painful to them before the buckle under and do it themselves. They have been taught that if they wait, whimper, cry and even throw a tantrum, some adult will magically appear to bail them out. Not many parents will allow their kids to pass out in the grocery store because they couldn't get the candy bar they wanted. Well. I'm one of them that will not. As an EMT I was trained to know that once the child turns blue and passes out, they will resume normal breathing. Both the Ex and I were EMT trained and my son did a lot of passing out in various public places. Well once they get to scouting age, they are a bit more sophisticated than a toddler. They are extremely patient and have all the time in the world to screw around, adults don't. So who's going to give in first? It's the old "Who's Gonna Blink First" game. Assume as an adult you are not going to outlast a kid unless you make a concerted effort to do so. Let's look at it this way. What is going to motivate the boys to get their act together and pack up camp? After making sure the boys are all trained and capable of packing up and getting on the road, an outing is designated as the "Who's gonna win" Weekend. All the adults get up quickly, break camp and then set up around the campfire. I usually have a book or magazine to read. The boys are all allowed to dawdle. So on the way home, there's the restroom stop at a sporting goods store. They go in and out in 5 minutes. It is definitely not long enough to do any fun shopping. The adults make sure they watch the time closely. When the boys ask why they can't have more time shopping, the answer is..... (wait for it)..... "Because you wasted your shopping time back at camp." That weekend in and of itself should be good for 2-3 years of lets get up and get going so we have time to stop on the way home. One could also use other forms of "rewards" for the boys. My boys always like to go back to a section of river rapids and run them a second time....if there was time. I had situations were a patrol got up, got their breakfast in, packed and was back on the water running the rapids, wile the other boys were back in camp dawdling and goofing around. No one asked why the other boys got to have fun the rest didn't. They are capable of figuring things like that out. Of course breakfast burritos for the first patrol packed, cooked by the adults, can sell well, too. Seriously these boys really aren't all that sophisticated to figure this out right away. I once used the first patrol done with packing up earned the right to stay up an extra hour around the campfire on the next outing and I popped them popcorn. EVERY boy in that patrol reminded me of that on the next outing. It's surprising how well they can remember things that are important to them. Okay, how much of that process is coaching? None. Mentoring? None. Guiding? None. Directing? None. The boys know what needs to be done, they just need some positive motivation, even if it's just bragging rights and a few brownie point perks down the road. Empowering and motivating the boys does far more to develop leadership than directing and guiding and whatever else adults might do to "control" (and adult lead) the situation.

Come summer the boys all pay $50 out of their pocket for camp. The troop pays the rest. If the troop can't pay the rest, the boys have to pay more. Boys that can't afford the initial $50 can go out and earn it on their own, or they can stay home. It's a choice they all have to make on their own. One must also remember that if one is using the patrol method, one can raise money with individual patrol accounts and each patrol works at getting all their buddies to the activity. That process means the IRS can't touch it. There's nothing in our troop that says that the new stove that the Panthers bought can't have the name Panthers written in big letters on it before it goes into the storage area. Same for any other patrol equipment funded by the fundraising efforts of the patrol.

Well we know that there are those in our country that are offended by the US Flag as being a symbol of oppression and evil. I guess my avatar is going to tick someone off. My personal response to that is.... too bad, live with it, chill out, and most importantly of all... get a life. How many Scout Laws did I break with that one? And you thought a mentor pin or two was a big deal.....

They could have gone with T-Shirts 'R' Us and still gotten BSA approval for the branding rights. After all a lot of marketing is designed to separate a fool from his money and insulting them is always an optional tactic. "Be Wise, buy our Fantastic Product" which loosely translates into "You are stupid if you don't." I wouldn't rely on Madison Avenue to set BSA policy. It wouldn't be wise.

I wasn't being judgmental, just posting some observations. It really sounds like you have a good handle on it and from this further info, it sounds like it's going to be a great opportunity for the boys. The young boy who is popular and is always helping others is an EXCELLENT choice for PL. Those boys did great. Besides becoming useless the next step for you is observing how well your decision plays out. Trust your boys, they will surprise you and it looks like that just might be the case, hang in there, the journey is only just starting.

The money all goes into the general fund amidst the wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then the Jambo/Philmont boys make application for support for their trip to the PLC. If the PLC feels the boys have worked their butts off to justify assistance they can decide to help out from the troop's general fund. If parents are all that concerned about THEIR money, they need to have the funds clarified. This is the problem with ISA's people get the idea that the money they raise for the troop belongs to THEM. IT DOESN'T IT BELONGS TO THE CHARTERING ORGANIZATION. Once you clear that up, you will see the boys working on their fundraisers AND working on THEIR own funds in THEIR own bank accounts to raise money for THEIR trips. This is why I don't use ISA's it create a questionable system that I personally don't think plays well with the THRIFTY scout law.

Good for you! Well done. You didn't mention how many patrols there were. If you have 3-4 patrols the PL's might be encouraged to pick an SPL to help them be successful. I know the BSA literature says the troop elects the SPL, but if you want a functional SPL that actually functions as helping the PL's be successful, the PL's need to be doing the picking. If you want a patrol-method troop, you need an SPL that spends his time helping the PLs, not trying to run the troop because he won a popularity contest. I love the title of the thread! It is an adventure that a lot of scouts and scouters miss out on. It's called leadership development!

If one were to go back to my posts, I have stuck with what the US Flag Code indicates is proper and been chided by some forum members. I have stuck with what BSA is proper uniforming and have been chided by some of the forum members. So, what it boils down to is what have the forum members been teaching the boys and I for one do not blame the boys for improper training. One must always remember that if they are going to lead by example, they had better know what they need to be doing to set the best example possible for the boys. (We're all human, none of us is perfect, but that doesn't mean we give up and do it just any old way we feel like it.) I really don't care what other unit leaders do when it comes to flag ceremonies, how they instruct the boys to wear or not wear the uniform and a variety of other issues. Let's just say with the processes in place what training the leaders get and how they translate that into program is not an exact science by any stretch of the imagination. As others have alluded to: every boy should have a well trained and informed leader. Not everyone is lucky enough to get it. So, I'm destined to forever take my lumps, but I'm still a firm believer it's for the boys, so I keep doing it.

Okay, okay. The Packers are playing tonight on Monday Night Football. I'm having pizza and a beer. If it makes everyone happy, I'm going to take my mentor pins off my jac-shirt and put them on my uniform, then put on my Banana Republic general scout uniform shirt on, (shirt only) and try not to slop pizza down the front of it. Ya happy now?

Out of respect for our veterans and not just funzies, I'll do it too. So will my boys.

My apologies, I stand corrected!

Ya, but then some government guy is going to know where you are and what you're up to 24/7.....