Stosh

I can see where the lack of clarification comes in when only a part of the paragraph is quoted, having been taken out of its original context.. The whole paragraph reads: "Uniform standards in the BSA are non-existent. People wear what they want to wear and their sense of BSA pride in that uniform simply does not exist. (Picture of scout in full uniform doing an Eagle project) Someone should have told this scout that full field uniform is not proper to be doing heavy park clean up in. (Picture of scout in partial uniform doing an Eagle project) A scout that shows how much pride he has in his uniform while doing his eagle project can be seen in this example."

"Someone should have told this scout that full field uniform is not proper to be doing heavy park clean up in." And he'd be the first to disagree with you. As far as he is concerned it is proper to wear the full uniform for any and all scout activities. I never saw him out of uniform except when he took his summer camp swim test at the waterfront. Every registered scout and scouter in the troop showed up as always in full uniform. With the troop it was expected that everyone show up in full uniform for ALL scout activities. The troop was not a band-box outfit. Their uniforms were patched, stained and cleaned up the best they can be for special occasions, but every repair patch, every paint stain, every wear mark was a badge of honor that the troop isn't just there for show. The attitude of the troop has obviously changed since I left because the second photo shows a different story. For all I know the SPL in partial uniform might have been the only scout that showed up. Yes some of the uniforms are expensive, but the uniform the boy on the 4-wheeler is wearing is an authentic 1960's uniform with community strip and proper rank and POR patches.... and he collected it all up on E-Bay and it did cost a bit more than a regular uniform. He also wore it to the 100th Anniversary Jambo. By then he was 3rd ASM of the contingent. He showed up at Jambo with all the patches switched out to reflect his proper position in scouting. If it's a scout activity, one shows up in full scout uniform. By the way, this scout wasn't the only boy that wore a historic uniform others wore them as well including the garrison cap and campaign hat. The campaign hat costs more than the whole modern uniform combined.... and he was wearing it the day the park was cleaned up.

Yep, there are some things that time totally dictates the course of action.

And above all that, I am super glad you made it through this scary situation with your health. Take care of yourself, you're one of the good guys, too.

It just depends on who you talk to. Just be selective with whom you talk to.

Naw, focus on the boys, that's where the real reward in scouting is. District and council politics is not my game. I was in scouting for over 20 years before I got District Award of Merit and I've been passed over for Silver Beaver 3 different times. Reason? Don't help out on the district and council level. Yep, and that ain't gonna change any time soon.

Seriously though, it is surprising how much stuff one can carry using canoe pack "technology". The boys hassled me throughout the Philmont trek because I used waist belt, shoulder straps AND tump line. They all carried 25-40% of their weight I was 160# and carried close to 70# when I got my share of food and took my turn at extra equipment. I was 50 years old they were 14-17 ..... Because of my age and weight, it was strongly suggested by staff that I carry 20%-25% They had to stop and rest 3 times more often than I did. Hassle me all you want, I still carried my weight and 9 days later I was still in better shape than most of the others. To this day I still use it for carrying canoes, it does wonders for keeping most of the thwart pressure off the back of your neck.

I think the old "cut and suck" technique for those 2-3 days into the back country has been replaced by "hope and pray". Did the snake give full venom or not? That's the hope and pray part because there's really nothing anyone can do at that point anyway except hope and pray.

As a former EMT, I concur it is really stupid to expect them to take the course. Yes, I'm sure he could teach it easily. But one has to be careful. What about doctors? ER doctors? Urologists? Plastic surgeons? Psychiatrists? And what about nurses, ER Trauma? Geriatics? Pediatrics? I think a pass out option should be made available but then every two years, the person should be able to pass out and skip paying the stupid $150 every other year. This isn't an issue of making sure our boys are safe, it's an issue of legal and financial concerns of the BSA.

If these people are so insensitive so as to pull a stunt like they did, what makes anyone think they even realize what they've done.

Yeah, but I got the kitchen sink in my Duluth pack. No one else did.

LOL, after a long lull of not doing MB's I went in just this morning to sign up again. The registrar said I had to fill out a new application because it had been more than 5 years since I did any MB classes. She said put your name on it, sign it, and hand it in. Nothing else, just needed a paper trail. Then fill out the sheet as to what MB's I would want to teach. End of the paperwork after I hand it in. I figure that if the council wants to know how many boys I did MB's for, they can count up the cards with my name on them at the end of the year. Not my problem The boy has the only paperwork that counts anyway.... his blue card!

One can teach minimalist camping and still plop like @@blw2 says. It's the main reason why I'm up and packed in the car before the boys get up in the morning. I learned a long time ago that what you take is what you can carry in one trip. I afford myself the luxury of two trips for summer camp. As a Civil War reenactor, I learned that if one were to carry the minimum they could take it all on the battlefield the last day of the event and when the battle was over, race to the car, dump the pack in the trunk and beat 50,000 other reenactors out to the highway and be well on my way at least 30 minutes before the massive traffic jam ensued.

I hit E-Bay and looked up BSA Yucca Pack. Should be able to pick them up for about $15 each. I have 4 and the only time I do not use just one for an outing is at summer camp, then I use all 4. I do have an Alice Pack which is my second preference. I picked one of those up for about $30 and my $80 external frame is nice when I canoe. The frame stretches from gunnel to gunnel and keeps my gear out of the water in the bottom of the canoe. For extended canoe trips I have 2 military duffles with shoulder straps ($20 each) that I line with plastic. All in all my most expensive pack is used the least and the cheapest, the most. One of those 4 Yucca packs has my name and address written on it. My mom did that the first year I went to summer camp as a scout.

That reminds me of the old brown wall tents our troop had and the entire patrol fit into each one. Fond memories!

Which is easier to start with? The boys need to get used to the outdoor environment. Minimalist camping might be too much in the beginning. Maybe just cabin camping with lots of outdoor activities, then maybe a circus tent with all his buddies, then, then, then, and finally Philmont. I started camping at 4 years old. Obviously I wasn't into too much backpacking and didn't buy a pack until I was in Boy Scouts. But I did have my own pup tent long before I was in Boy Scouts. It was a 2-man pup tent, no floor and one end opened. After 60+ years the last time I camped it was a 4-man Kelty with rain-fly and vestibule. 2 self-inflating pads rounded out the luxury. The Mrs. has been camping since high school and served with the National Forestry Service in Alaska. Are we capable of taking the boys out into the woods? Yep and the first place we took them was a state park and spent a lot of time helping them set up old tents and showed them how to cook their food on a stick. As a new troop of brand new Webelos cross-overs, they thought it was a fantastic adventure. We've gotten better in the past 18 months, two summer camps, but no backpacking yet. Sometime before we get too old, the Mrs. and I are planning on Isle Royale with the boys. It'll probably be a couple of years, yet. Baby steps! For these boys, each one of those baby steps is a new adventure. The food and fun is always more important than the equipment. No matter how old they are, you hand them a hot dog, the'll find a stick.

As a volunteer medical responder it always increases the possibility of getting into a situation that's going to affect you for the rest of your life. Most Scouters can go many years and never have to face one of these situations. But not everyone is going to be lucky. I knew a policeman who served the community and never drew his gun his entire career. A SM friend of mine in the next town over on the other hand ended up in a gunfight and fortunately he won. We all need to be ready for the lot that might be drawn for us and sometimes it just plain stinks. The one thing that I did learn from that experience is that dealing with trauma to children is the worst. This is maybe why I'm a bit anal when it comes to providing a FA class that is designed mainly to deal with children. Nothing anyone does to have the WFA class taught perfectly is going to be enough to prepare you for the situation, the situation itself is terrifying for all involved because it is real, nothing is going to ever erase the memory of what happened and you will second guess every second of that experience for the rest of your life. Been there done that. Sometimes you win and a life is saved, but in medical, especially trauma situations, the odds are always stacked against you, that's why being prepared for the worst is worth whatever it takes.

I'm not so worried about what BSA is up to with the WFA situation,but I am definitely concerned about why. Is this going to be quality training or just CYA for legal reasons? Jury still seems to be out on that.

not everyone has as much boy-led experience and what you, Barry and I are all suggesting is oriented more for those who will be making an attempt to be more more and more boy-led. Using a lot of catchy come-backs isn't necessarily a good suggestion for the leaders just starting the process. We were just putting a bit of a disclaimer on such pat answers.

@@Krampus Keep it in mind I'm not being critical of the idea of having training, I'm concerned about spending big bucks and a lot of time on training that according to the offered up curriculum isn't going to be of much help in the field. By doing so, it could offer a false sense of security to the leaders thinking they are prepared when in fact they aren't. With your example of the boy with the cut knee. Depending on the bleeding, I don't know as if I would have tried to carry the boy out. I'd just wait for rescue personnel with better equipment to do that. A Stokes basket would do better than 2 poles and a blanket for extricating the boy safely. If the bleeding was under control, you are no longer in a life-threatening situation and time isn't an issue. Treating for shock and comfort still are. It is these kinds of things that need to be addressed in the WFA class, not patient assessment to conclude a diagnosis. No. Treat the injuries in life-threatening to non life-threatening order. You are not dealing with injury, you are dealing with time, and that's what the class should be about. Yes, the techniques are nothing more than what is taught in S-FC, and maybe a bit more from FA MB. But like in the analogy I used. You have a major cut, One has but a minute or two to decide whether this is going to be able to be controlled before he bleeds out in the next couple of minutes. Okay you got the bleeding to stop. Now the decision is, how severe is the shock. Do I take 3 days to carry him out or do I put 4 of my fastest scouts on the trail to get help headed my way. They can travel faster than I can carry a kid on a stretcher. I cover the trail in 3 days. The running boys do it in one day and the helicopter rescue team in in flight 30 minutes later. Why did I bother to jostle this shocky kid down the trail in a makeshift stretcher when I could have just as well stayed where I was or moved a few hundred yards to a clearing where a helicopter could land. We played the game as ambulance attendants all the time. Do we make a 30 minute run to the hospital or wait at the scene for 45 minutes but get better care from LifeFlight? Is there a close place for the chopper to land? Do you know how to mark it so that the flight crew can land safely? Do you know how to bring in a helicopter safely for landing? What's the weather like, can they even get in the air? Remember, peoples' lives are at stake on your decisions. The WFA class I would suggest would be 25% learning basic skills for the injuries that could be dealt with in the field In depth review of S-FC skills, and 75% of the time, learning how to make good medical decisions for the patient. CPR training in the WFA class? Nope, total waste of time that could be used for training on issues that would be more productive.

You are right, there are times when an SPL, a PL or even a general scout that is in need of a backboard to bounce ideas off without a big to-do. "Mr. S. what do you think about me asking, doing, suggesting, etc. (a certain idea)" He is not seeking a decision, he's seeking some advice for his decision. He might have already discussed it with his PL/SPL but was a bit unsure about addressing it to the whole patrol. Offering up advice in stead of decisions is not the same issue as asking questions on leadership directives and the adults have to be able to distinguish between the two. I really don't expect a scout who's having trouble at home to turn to his PL for assistance in the situation. Or if the PL is the source of the scout's concern.... Or he did ask the PL and got blown off. As an adult in the program, it's always good to listen first then talk.

My standard answer is, "What did your PL say about it?" The only one that can ask a question to the adults is the SPL if there is one, and the PL's if there isn't. The adults are there to provide "2-deep leadership" which loosely translated for us is legalese for covering BSA's butt and drinking coffee. Training for the process is the responsibility of the boys who were originally trained by the adults who are now retired.

You are wrong, all registered scouts were in full uniform including neckers. The gentleman in the picture was not a scout...no uniform. The only time I saw the Eagle is when he rotated around to each of the work groups to make sure they understood what needed to be done and check on their progress. If a crew got their assignment done, he had another one ready to be assigned and directed. We were kept very busy all day long. The only break anyone got was to get water and when the crew was called to the refreshment tent for lunch..

Naw, I hate chainsaws. Never used one in my life. The Eagle's dad was assigned dropping trees and cutting them up, the boys and I were assigned to do the hauling to the pick-up point where the city crews hauled them away to be chipped and mulched. The gentleman in the picture was the one assigned to the pond and getting all the junk out of the pool so the DNR could come in and stock it with trout. The Eagle's mother was assigned the food tent. There was yet another group that mowed up after the clearing of brush and mowed down to the ground.. The Eagle was so well organized the project only lasted one day. but he had enough people to cover the entire 2 acre park. He had it down to the point where he had a pre-project team go in and blaze what trees to drop and what areas to clear. He consulted with a forester and a naturalist from the local university to come in and do an environmental impact survey of the area before he started and the DNR was consulted about the stocking of the pond. The whole project was done for the City, it was an abandoned park once owned by a veterans group that couldn't take care of it any longer so they gave it to the County who ignored it for 20 years who then gave it to the City who ignored it for another 20 years. The Eagle went in and cleaned up the 40 years of neglect. The picture above was taken by the local newspaper photographer who came out with a reporter to cover the scoop. I have no idea how much posing was done in the picture, the Eagle was working with the pond crew when the reporters showed up, I was off in a different area hauling brush.

Why not register the CO treasurer as a member of the committee? That way it eliminates the useless position on the committee of the treasurer and the CO treasurer will have a better idea of how scout unit finances are run. When I started my new unit 18 months ago, I offered everything from the CC up to COR for members of the CO to take over on. They refused them all. In this case, it's one less volunteer you have to find.....