Stosh

I totally agree, there are churches and not-for-profits floundering and collapsing every day. Once the Ivory Tower becomes disconnected, the program will fail. One never seems to realize the dynamics that make a for-profit business successful are NOT THE SAME dynamics that will make a not-for-profit business successful. They have different missions and different functional expectations to accomplish those missions. A for-profit organization exists for only one reason to make a profit. Wow, now there's a profound statement. A not-for-profit organization exists for many reasons but one of them is not to make a profit..... And yet there are those out there that think that both organizations can be run effectively under the business dynamics of just one business philosophy. It ain't never gonna work, people! The Board of Directors of a for-profit corporation exist to please the stockholders. The Board of Directors of a not-for-profit corporation exist to fulfill the mission of it's existence. There are no stockholders in the BSA and when the BOD no longer remembers the mission of it's existence, then no one really knows why it is justified to continue existing. Once there is a complete disconnect, the last remnants of the original mission will die off due to the lack of support. From the comments of some of the forum, this disconnect has already happened.

So what you're saying is introducing new boys into a boy-led program whether it is through the NSP or just full steam ahead doesn't make a difference in the loss of first year scouts. So my 2/3rds loss was due to the fact that I didn't start the boys out adult led and move to boy led later on? 1 boy left because he didn't like scouts. It was his single mom that was pushing for him to have adult male influence on him. 1 boy left because his buddy left. 1 boy left because he was more interested in 4-H a program where his sisters had excelled in. 1 boy left because he moved out of the area. 1 boy left because he wanted a troop where he didn't want to work so hard. He moved to a troop 30 miles away in a different state. He lives 4 blocks from the troop he left and bypassed at least 6-8 to get to the other troop. First year of operation as a troop so they were basically a NSP anyway. How would one justify adult led vs. boy led emphasis for first year scouts as having any effect on this situation of major loss the first year? Not to worry. I have 7 new boys committed to coming in next year, but I'm still saddled with NSP vs. inexperienced "older" boys who will now be 12. Sure, one can brag about their version of boy-led because they either inherited it from another SM or they have older boys already present that have made the transition. Try it some day from scratch, then one will see a whole new set of dynamics that don't fit in with working with an established unit of older boys. I took over a floundering unit of 5 boys and built it up to 28 boys in 4 years. Only two of the 5 boys stuck with the program, but it was enough. One might want to try it sometime. Walk into a neighborhood that has no scouting and establish a troop out of nothing. Everything one knows about adult led AND boy led is gone. One year of development, one year of operations and we have 2 last year Webelos boys hanging in there having a great time. 7 new Webelos looking to come in in a couple of months. The boys are doing great. I'm thinking the new Webelo boys first two major outings are going to be the spring camporee and a whitewater canoe trip. How's that for adventure right out of the box? I'm sure there are a ton of other better ways of doing it out there done by thousands of different units, but my boys are showing advanced leadership skills after their first year in the program...and even more importantly, they are having fun doing it. Maybe after a coupe more years of this kind of leadership development, they'll be old enough for BSA's NYLT program of "real scout" leadership.

@@desertrat77 That's not a fair question.... Ministers work for the Lord but get paid by the people... Most of them don't think or act that way, but that's the theory.... I'm thinking that according to no-for-profit corporations the employees are answerable to the BOD's.

Sometimes that isn't such a bad situation to be in.

But what if one's boys think NYLT was a waste of time? None of my boys have ever thought it was all that beneficial and none of them felt it was a cost effective training session.

As long as the boys mingle, no problem, the adults get plenty of mingling at the RT's. Skipping a camporee or two isn't the end of the world. They get old with the same-old, same-old so I just bite the bullet and be the one of two-deep. Even a bad day sitting at a campfire by myself is better day than shopping with the Mrs. at the mall.

@@perdidochas One needs to take a lesson or two from nature. Even the wolf pack needs to mingle with other packs so as not to become too inbred. My boys must be a bit more socially oriented. They like sharing campsites with other troops and going to camporees to meet other boys. They are talking about in lieu of summer camp next summer, doing a canoe trek with primitive camping next summer with the troop from out-of-council, out-of-state, they shared a campsite with last summer camp. I dunno, sounds like it could be kinda fun.

But it is an adult-oriented assumption. My boys filled out next year's calendar with no help from me. They have picked up on what's available out there from other scouts, finding out what they're doing and from looking at other troop programs. The Memorial Day parade was because they did it as Cubs and enjoyed it. Kayaking came about because I was talking to my ASM about kayaking (we are both kayakers) and the boys might have been listening in. They also know I own two canoes. The hikes were a result of them knowing on their own what they need to do for advancement, and the week long canoe trek with primitive camping came from the week at last summer camp where they shared ideas with the troop they were sharing the site with. My #1 comment is not, "What do you boys want to be doing?" it is "That sounds like fun to me." As adults we are the ones that sit in the background and watch to see that the boys are getting things ready for the event. If they miss a step, the adults are prepared to work with the boys to assist them through the mistake and help them get back on track...IF THEY ASK, otherwise we just watch. Most of the time, they figure it out on their own.

They attended summer camp and earned MB's cooked all meals in the site, did 2 camporees, did extensive hiking (3 outings) tried out kayaking, went fishing marched in the Memorial Day parade, walked the neighborhood for the 5 mile hike with compass and did Scouting for food. Show and sell popcorn and other fundraisers were outside as well. and earned their Scout and Tenderfoot ranks. I figured that was plenty for the first year of a brand new troop. It didn't make our troop any more boy-led, it simply started out that way. By the way, the last two meetings were devoted to whitewater canoeing lessons because come next spring, they would like to do a whitewater canoe trip. They are also looking into a different summer camp as well. They are also coordinating with another troop about a week long canoe float on some of the local rivers in the area. It would seem that they have some wild hair at this point about canoes. I guess we'll see where it goes. Sounds kinda fun to me.

Doesn't that take away the leadership development responsibility of the troop if the Venturing people do the leadership? I'm thinking this is nothing more than an extension of leadership coming from something other than the boys themselves. I wouldn't want a Venturing Crew involved with my troop in that fashion.

If one were to name it something else, the general public would view it as a new and different organization.... which of course it would be and would need to re-market itself as a new identity. BSA would cease to exist.

Where's the profit in having one course when one can charge twice with two? I would think that U of Scouting could handle some of this kinds of thing, but instead of 6-8 short cursory courses, have one intensive course that will cover a units' next year's major activity. Even then, one day isn't going to be enough. When I went to BWCA I commandeered my brother who had extensive BWCA experience to come and teach me how to do a major trek up there. He came down on a weekend and went over everything from top to bottom on what was going to need to be done. At that point I could decide whether I could handle it or not. I in turn trained a number of scouts on the same material and now we had a core group of somewhat knowledgeable people capable to a successful trek. It took a lot of time and energy for both adults and youth, but the boys pulled it off quite nicely.

"My real question is -- what can we do to help other troops kick-start their adventure program? " @@Hedgehog You assume that it is the responsibility of the adults to develop the adventure part of the program. I don't, I assume that role to the youth themselves. I don't need to fine-tune MY skills, I need to assist the boys in helping them understand their role in fine-tuning THEIR sills. This is why I believe developing an understanding of boys and how to facilitate this process is more important than simply learning a bunch of scoutcraft skills as a prerequisite to being a SM/ASM. In a boy-led program, the onus of developing adventure should always be on the boys. I don't know how many times I have had to give "permission" to the boys to be their own leadership. "Mr. Stosh, why can't we ever do....(fill inthe blank)?" Me: "Who said you can't?" For boys of this age, this always comes as a surprise to them. All their life they have been told what to do by adults, now for the first time in their lives they have a choice and haven't learned yet how to deal with that. This is my job to help them through this process of change and start thinking like the adult they are becoming. That is the point I am trying to make. Where's the training on helping the scout leaders address this kind of dynamic in the development of their boys? There isn't any and so it's just easier to keep the same-old, same-old adults telling the boys what's happening than it is to truly develop the character of young boys. I'm going on a personal HA trip this weekend, what are you going to be doing? To which the boys answer, we're having a LAN/Pizza party over to the PL's house where we can escape the reality of this world for some virtual electronic world where we get to do some great and fantastic things with our avatars. Yeah, right. Sign me up!

Childhood is not the idealized growing up into what you are supposed to be in this world, it is growing up into what your parents expect you to be.

I have the beads, I have the leadership skills, I have the management skills, and the only only thing I can credit BSA for with their training was the beads and a cursory understanding of the theoretical structure of how things work.. Operational Management and Leadership I picked up from other sources.

If it's co-ed, it isn't Boy Scouts of America anymore. Name it anything you want. Kids in the STEM Lab works for me.

And that was the point exactly. I may have all the skills down pat, I might be able to tie the bowline one-handed with my eyes closed, I can set up any kind of tent on the market today and for the past 100 years, but do I know enough about boys and how they act and react away from home and in the woods to trust them to do and make the right decisions? If I can't answer that question, I'm heading to the State Park and council camps instead of the back woods where there is plenty of immediate support and cell phone bars if needed. Even if I might feel a bit comfortable with the woods doesn't mean I'm taking 20 unknowns with me that I am responsible for their safety.

Clearly in this case it's an issue of hiring the who's in the neighborhood hanging around @@Krampus and who's the professionals @@David CO.

I always love the way you disagree with me and then turn around and support the comment I just made. ALL LEADERS NEED TO KNOW HOW TO DEAL WITH ALL BOYS REGARDLESS OF THEIR ABILITIES AND DISABILITIES.. So, Mr. SM gets a new boy who is significantly handicapped. So the process begins..... Does the SM turn him away? Does he evaluate the boy to see if he'll fit in with the unit? If not does the SM have resources to help the boy find a unit that has the resources to best help the boy? With my background I can handle just about anything anyone tosses my direction. Not everyone can do that, but are they savvy enough to know what they can do? and if not, what can they do to get and keep these boys in scouting?

I was thinking a twinge of sarcasm, but wasn't sure.... I just put on my "be polite" hat just in case it wasn't. I do think we need to remember that the harshness towards BSA is more toward the policies and practices of where the program is going than the twits sitting at the desks.

Regardless of what we think should be done with adult training for the boy's adventures, wouldn't it simply be dictated by the choices the boys make? If the boys want to backpack, the adults learn about that either on-line or take classes at the local sporting goods store. They want to bike hike, then one bones up on what that is all about. BWCA? More training on learning how to canoe, etc. Some of the boys might already be miles ahead of the new adult leaders and even they could be instrumental in training them on what's needed. A general, generic training to cover all aspects would be useless because it would be so watered down it would be cursory at best. A psychological development program of understanding how boys think and feel would apply to any activity. Reading between the lines, knowing whether the boys are enjoying the activities, understanding group dynamics and how to best support them. Not everyone that can backpack can handle the group pressures of a 9-day Philmont trek and how to deal with it. The leader doesn't need to lead the trek and all the detail of what to pack, etc., but they have to be prepared for the tension and emotional stress of a long hike. They might not need to know all about bicycling, but the boy who's been biking for 5 days and his buddy gets sick and has to drop out and he can't handle the situation, knowing what to do then is critical. If they sit in the front of the canoe, they don't have to know how to be a good canoeist, and they could learn all about it from an experienced boy leader, but they will need to know enough to carry their own weight just like any other member of the float. Homesickness, loneliness, best friend fallout, personality conflicts, leadership shortcomings? Does it make any difference whether the boys are hiking a trail, paddling a canoe, climbing a mountain, setting up camp, or sitting at a meeting when the leader is called on to help the boys work things like this through with a positive outcome? I'll take a single adult leader with a modicum of scoutcraft skills who understands boys, over the hermit experienced woodsman any day. I really find it surprising with the number of scouters who really don't understand boys very well. Being a parent doesn't really qualify them in any way in this regard, and often times hiders it.

Any scout that doesn't like to camp is going to end up being a Paper Eagle at best. One has to seriously question their motivations as to why they are in the program. A kid that wants an athletic scholarship to college but hates sports..... The college graduate that wants to be a business CEO but doesn't like to work.... the seminary graduate that likes to have his weekends free..... How far are we going to cater to these people before we realize how much of our time is being wasted on useless efforts?

Knowing scoutcraft skills is one thing, but knowing the development dynmics of young males is quite a bit different. Picking up on the scoutcraft is just learning to follow directions and practice on proficiency. Knowing these factors and applying them requires more than book learnin' and hanging around observations. Just a basic class on understanding the boy-led, patrol-method concepts would be a lot more beneficial than being able to tie a bowline one handed.

I guess if one were to get right down to the nitty gritty of the situation, I think it was already stated that the animosity isn't towards professional scouters, but more towards the decisions that they are making and the direction those decisions are taking the program. As far as the people themselves, they range from the incompetent jerks to the really nice people both personally and professionally. That can be said about any demographic grouping anywhere in the world.