Stosh

@@Krampus Really?

When did the schools take over bed times for the children. I always thought that that was the decision of the parents. And if the schools are all that worried about it, they can always start school a little later. When I was driving school bus, there were plenty of grade school kids getting on the bus at 6:30 am. I had the shortest route at the time so I know other students got on even later than that. If parents are worried about the evening times, they can pull their children out of the program until they are mature enough to handle it.

The values and morality of a corporation whether it be a for-profit or not-for-profit are the same. Their focus is the only difference. Both can use the same marketing processes for accomplishing their goals and mission. Both Chik-fil-A and Hobby Lobby are both noted for their strong Christian values yet both are for-profit corporations. J. C. Penney was once this way before the founder passed away. Penny would not hire anyone unless they were Christian. So the BSA can use any marketing method they wish because it has nothing to do with their for-profit or not-for-profit values. And up until a few years ago, all #12 Dutch Ovens sold by Lodge had the BSA logo printed on the box. What does that do to promote the values of the BSA as well? No one said a thing about that endorsement for a for-profit corporation by the BSA.

Why wouldn't it work with committee members? First of all if they are trained, they should know their boundaries and if not, they need to be. Of course, like "boy-led", "leadership", etc. all have varying definitions along the way and no matter how much training one does, there's never going to be a consensus among the committee members. So the unit needs to define just one meaning to what the process is even if everyone doesn't agree with it. It becomes the de facto standard and that becomes the flag around which the adults rally. Troop Committee decides that Boy-Led means the SM dictates the program to the boys, and they do the work. If they do what they are told and the work gets done, they get the POR checked off and life is good.

Whatever you do, never ask the boy what he did to earn the award. I had a CM do that to one of my Webelos boys. He just stood there with the traditional deer-in-the-headlights stare. It was the communicator pin. I didn't make a big deal out of advancement, but blended it into the different activities we did. I stood and said, "It the Communicator pin, tell everyone how much fun you had sending codes with the flags and flashlights." He lit up like the 4th of July and the CM had to interrupt him so we could continue. The next boy earned the Readyman pin. Same initial reaction to the CM's inquiry, but I merely mentioned the first aid thing and carrying people on the stretchers and the boy lit up. The CM then went back to just handing out pins.

We had 2 troops, 2 small patrols and the commissary sent food for the whole site. We weren't even allowed to have the troop food split out let alone by patrol or even boy vs. adult. Patrol method only as long as it is expedient and convenient. Otherwise, it becomes the problem of the troop to figure it out on their own.

99% of the world is co-ed and the BSA is holding out as an all-boys club. Society won't be satisfied until that number reaches 100%. All that means is that the choice is no longer available.

I guess that's not a risk I want to take. If he calls my bluff, it opens a whole new can of worms that's not going to go away any time soon.

Sorry, but that's not how the game is played. Snipers are never on the front lines where all the work is being done. It would take all the fun out of it and the whiny parent would then be held accountable for their actions. That ain't ever gonna happen.

That's the point of the thread. I'm glad I"m not alone with this problem. @@MattR So, yes, we make it work as best we can, but if the patrol method is such a big deal, shouldn't camps be supporting this? The usual answer is that I can run my own summer camp for my troop. I suppose I can, but again, shouldn't my council be supporting my troop using the methods of scouting? Yep, I keep asking myself the exact same question.

And one no longer remembers the tremendous amount of advertising/sponsorships of Boy's Life of years past? I would say about half the pages were advertisements. So now that it has gone digital, BSA can't do that anymore?

But does one want that type of personality hanging around in an official capacity?

The Patrol Method Patrols are the building blocks of a Boy Scout troop. A patrol is a small group of boys who are similar in age, development, and interests. Working together as a team, patrol members share the responsibility for the patrol's success. They gain confidence by serving in positions of patrol leadership. All patrol members enjoy the friendship, sense of belonging, and achievements of the patrol and of each of its members http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/BoyScouts/TheBuildingBlocksofScouting/patrol.aspx There ya go. Right from the horse's mouth. Anything else is personal judgment.

@@CalicoPenn To add to @@Krampus 's comments, my troop of one patrol does not compete in the summer camp camp-wide games. 4 boys from my troop camped with another troop of 2 boys. We were not allowed by camp-wide rules to combine the two troops so our boys just went off and did their own thing. So we show up at camp..... 300' is not going to work very well, but if it is a non-mess hall camp, why can't the patrols be sent to different sites? They might actually get to know some new friends from a different troop, too. The big troop cooking would not be available and adults could be spread out over the different sites as well and maybe make some new friends, too. I'm sure the first comment out of the adults' mouths would be, "NO, we can't control the situation and we won't know where our boys are." And that is why summer camps aren't patrol-method. The adults are running the show. Just try it some time. "Mr. Camp Director, our troop is made up of 4 patrols. We will need 4 sites and we don't mind sharing with other troops." The CD will say no, as will each of the other troops who have registered first for those sites. They don't want the responsibility of 2 adults keeping an eye on the other orphan patrol. If patrols are a method of scouting, surely the summer camps run by the councils should reflect the BSA program. Well, IF you want to do your own thing, fine, just don't expect the BSA council program to reflect the BSA national lip-service program.

In all my years as a SM, I've never had to "drag" anyone anywhere. I usually am too busy trying to keep up with the boys instead. If you leave them to their own devices, it can get pretty hectic on the adult level keeping up the necessary support for the different activities. The boys don't need to make sure all the BSA policy BS is maintained, just the adults do. Having 2 adults on every activity is not their problem, it's ours. Thank you, very much, BSA.

@@Krampus Mr. Krampus, we want you to totally organize our next trip to Philmont. Yeah, right! I'll get right on it!

Experience will tell you to adjust the briquettes with temperature, wind, etc. You are totally correct in that the ground, damp or not, will draw heat away from the DO so a double layer of foil will protect the grass and keep the heat from going down into the ground. an old steel cookie sheet works well, too. I ALWAYS use a spacer when baking. I use 9" pie pans to hold the food in. A 9" pie pan will hold 1/2 a 9"X13" recipe. Two DO's will cover a 9"X13" hotdish nicely. By using the 9" pie pans, nothing ever burns and clean up is a breeze as well. I have both cast iron and aluminum spacers made for DO"s, but as I mentioned earlier, 3 small rocks work just as well. Thanks for the reminder. I have been using a DO table for a few years when I plop camp so, I forgot to mention the ground issue, and yes, it is noticeable the amount of heat lost to the ground.

For me it is 6-8 boys in a group led by 2 people that is capable of functioning as a single unit. Young leaders can handle 6 other boys with the maturity and skill set they posses at that age. The PL is the highest ranking officer in the troop unit. (not BSA acceptable, but I find it the easiest for the boys to understand) Each patrol is totally autonomous from the troop, make their own decisions and controls their destiny in their scouting careers. Every aspect of their functionality is within their control. No outside intervention except in the issues of safety or health is allowed. The patrol, as a whole, interacts with the troop through the PLC which is the gathering of PL's to exchange ideas and share information about each of the patrols intentions. PLC collects information and devises efforts of the troop leadership corps of boy officers to support whatever it is the patrols may need. This is under the direction of the ASPL. The SPL focuses his attention on the specific support of the PL's and their functional effectiveness in their patrols. For example, if a PL says they need 2 DO's for the upcoming outing, the ASPL passes that information on to the troop QM who handle that issue. But if the PL says he has an issue of two of his members not getting along very well the SPL steps in to work with other PLs to see if there is a resolution to the problem by maybe transferring one of the boys to a different patrol. ASPL is task management and the SPL is more personal relationship issues. For me the troop could be liked to the Council/District format. SM is the Council SE, the SPL is the District DE, the Troop officers function like the District committee, the PL's are the SM's and the members are the "troop". The PLC is the RT. That puts the functionality in adult terms that specifically emphasize the leadership roles of the boy-led aspect of the patrol-method. It also emphasizes that aspects of one super patrol of older boys can't be dictating to the other patrols or vice versa. No troop tells another troop what it can or cannot do. No patrol can do it in my structure either. The boys seemed to really enjoy that level of autonomy in my former troop and everyone seemed to be pleased with running their own shows as well.

@@ianwilkins The pineapple upside down cake sounds like they did it exactly correct. The spacer allows hot air to move around the bottom of the pan and circulates the heat more evenly. If one doesn't have a spacer plate, one can always use 3 small stones to put the pan on to keep it off the bottom. The charcoal on top will brown out the cake nicely on the top (or in this case bottom. ) I would find out who that person was that did the DO cooking and get some lessons. Sounds like he/she is spot on. Using the correct methods for DO useage, there is nothing one can't do in a DO that they aren't already doing at home in the oven or on the stove. It is the most universal cooking utensil there is. Every pioneer family in the US had one as they moved west and the early explorers generally carried them as well. I own several of different sizes and both cast iron and aluminum. I generally give them away as wedding gifts to my outdoorsy friends. If you master the use of DO with the UK tradition of roast dinners, you will quickly become the master chef of the British Empire. One never knows when the Queen might want to do a camping holiday and your number is on speed dial.

I generally don't do foil dinners because I don't ever eat with the patrols. However, with that being said, I do use foil occasionally when cooking on the campfires. General double layering of the foil, adding plenty of liquids to steam, making sure they are sealed up well and don't toss them into a bonfire. All of these things keep the food from burning. What most boys (and a lot of adults) don't realize is that campfire cooking is not microwave cooking. It takes time and low heat to keep things from burning. Adding more heat to "speed up the cooking" only burns things on the outside and leaves it uncooked in the middle.

Just putting the DO on the fire is nothing more than frying with a cover. Not a problem if that's all one is doing. However, the DO is intended to be an oven with heat sources both on top and bottom. Too much neat on the bottom burns on the food, no heat on the top does't brown the top, The measured number of briquettes is just a way of regulating the actual baking temperature. 3 up and 3 down method (#12 oven uses 15 on top and 9 on the bottom) will give one a 350o oven. It's just a starting reference. If the recipe calls for a cool oven, take away briquettes equally and a hot oven add briquettes equally. If using wood instead of charcoal, just do an eyeball estimate of the briquette amount of heat using wood coals. Remember charcoal lasts twice as long as wood so the briquettes need to be changed out every hour, but wood needs to be changed out every half hour. For those who use weights instead of volumes, it might help to pre-measure the ingredients before the trip. I do that all the time anyway just to cut down on prep time and measurement hassles.

Kinda makes one wonder how they could have gotten away with it all these years. "Teaching" one thing and doing another. It's no wonder adults have no idea what the patrol method is other than in theory.

In some discussions I noticed that there are times when the activities of the districts and councils are very contra-indicative of the program emphasis of boy-led, patrol-method. For example at camporees and summer camp there are leader meetings where the adults are expected to carry information back to the troop. That in itself is adult-led, troop-method in my book. Why aren't arrangements made for PL meetings instead of SPL meetings, Patrol registrations at camporees, Patrol table assignments at summer camp, etc. Does the SPL or SM take center stage at the RT? At least shouldn't there be SPL gatherings at sometime or another for the boys to exchange ideas as well? So often we give lip service to boy-led, patrol-method, but in reality, set up the operations and structures of activities so as to ignore it. Anyone experience any effort beyond the individual units that are working with patrols rather than troops? Whereas many troops don't do patrol-method within the troop, how many experience any patrol-method outside the troop?

Our culture has become Intolerance Running Rampant. Self-Righteous Indignation is coming as a close second and the Golden Rule is the distant last place. I used to call it our society, but that implies a modicum of community. That dynamic hasn't been around for many years. People used to be concerned that they lived in a neighborhood where they didn't know anyone. Now they just don't care. Wave or say "Hi" to someone and immediately they become suspicious. The scary part is that the transformation isn't complete yet.