Stosh

If other groups won't start their own co-ed camping programs on their own, why do they insist on harassing other groups into accommodating them because they are too lazy to start their own???

I've haven't gotten notification on being quoted since the hiccup in the system either....

Everyone has their agenda. Everyone has their bias. Everyone has their opinion. As mentioned, the higher power issue needed to be addressed long before the scout ever got to the EBOR. Obviously the SM had his/her agenda and the EBOR people had theirs. Some scouters have a control freak obsession and even though the BSA program is supposed to be run by the boys, there are times when they are not allowed to participate, i.e. EBOR's. It's one of the few times the saber rattling and strutting can be justified. The comments by Calico articulate how this is "checked and balanced" in the program. This way the adults can do their strutting and the boy can still get his Eagle. Then their is the obsessive compulsive that needs every t crossed and i dotted. It is as if they wallow in the glory of finding other people's oversights. So now, Keep it in mind that politics plays it's role in every aspect of BSA. Remembering that helps one sleep easier at night. As long as one keeps their own agenda in check and is working FOR THE BOYS, one doesn't need to worry about getting in the way, but knowing others will try is approaching the issues "Prepared".

Keep it in mind that politics plays it's role in every aspect of BSA. Remembering that helps one sleep easier at night.

Yep, when one goes into a discussion area, each unread thread had a little icon next to it and if you clicked it intead of the thread title, it would take you to the last unread comment. Now whether it's the little icon or the threat title, it go to the initial posting and one has to wade through all the posts to get to the most current one. The clicking on the last post on the first page of the forum takes you to the last unread comment on that topic, but if there are multiple threads going on, it only works for the intial listing. Might want to keep an eye on that to see if others notice the change or if it's just me.

What's with the change? I used to be one could go to the latest post by clicking on the little button to the left of the thread title. That doesn't seem to be working. It might not be working on the clicking on the discussion title on the first page, too. Ran out of new posts before I could fully check it out. On the long threads, this could pose a real pain in the butt.

My boys provide the adults with a courtesy announcement whenever there is a leadership change in the patrols/troop. It's up to them how they go about making leader selections. The positions don't change very often.

Yep, times have changed..... and not necessarily for the better.

PL1 and PL3 must be new boy patrols? "with a few others" don't they have patrols of their own? Where's their PL? PL2 needs to be replaced with a functioning PL. Sorry, the patrol shouldn't have to suffer because of one boy's situation. Otherwise the APL3 needs to start functioning because he's responsible for taking care of his PL, he's the PL's right hand man and he's not doing his job. If SPL is doing the leading and the PL's and APLs are non-functional, a review of what the patrol-method is needed. Each boy before he takes a POR needs to be honest up front as to whether or not they can handle the responsibility. If they can't they should be doing a special project assigned by the SM for advancement, not disrupting the troop operations with a poor performance. What did the SPL do to help out patrol #3 with their shaky leadership situation? Probably too busy working on useless meeting agendas? Need the boys to focus on getting the troop operational on the patrol method structure of some sort and having PORs functional. THEN one can go on to bigger and better. If the base is crumbly, the rest of the structure is going to be weak.

Probably a tough challenge for him, but in the end may be as rewarding as an Eagle medallion in the greater scheme of things. Once he gets this under his belt, how many other things that he thought might not be possible now stand before him? This is how great character is built, one challenge at a time! I had one boy sign up for swimming MB that couldn't swim. The first year at camp he went down to the waterfront and worked his tail off. No, he didn't get his swimming MB, but the smile from ear-to-ear on Friday told me he passed the BSA swim test. Yes, he did eventually earned the swimming and life-saving MB and went on to Eagle. Congratulate your son for me for his determination. If my boys put in half the effort you son does, they would all be fantastic Eagle scouts!

@@blw2 Obviously you are the ultimate decider as to what's best for your children. No one should interfere with that. You see the world more objectively and you have an understanding of what should be a good scout program. Go to all of the troops a couple of times, then head out to the ice cream shop with your son (if he drinks coffee, then hit the coffee shop ), and have a long heart to heart with him on what he would like to have as his scouting career. You can bring out the finer points of boy-led, patrol-method that he probably is totally unaware of and with it being just you and him, the shyness factor doesn't apply. No pressure to have him decide on your timetable, let him mull it over. Before he decides remind him that a bad decision is not the end of the world. Scouting is meant to try out new things and take on new challenges so assure him you have his back if he makes the wrong choice. Let him know this discussion can be started up again at any time he wishes. If you are thinking about being a leader in his new troop, you had better start focusing in on treating your son as an adult. Adult association means dealing with him as a peer, not a father, not a leader, but a peer. When the two of you are at scouts, it's not father/son, and his chance to see what the adult world is all about. THAT is a tough role to play, been there done that and it's hard to see your little one grow up in front of your eyes. But at the end, it's a terrific feeling and worth the effort. You're going to need to learn to interact with him as an adult eventually, might as well start now.

I cheated. ADD/ADHD kids tend to get overly focused as a group. This kid was on a mission and loving it. I think he was a bit disappointed when the fundraiser was over. He was very reluctant at first, but it was like someone flipped a switch and off he went. His mother was one of the parents who had me removed as SM because I expected too much leadership out of the boys. Boy-led can be a double-edged sword especially when dealing with parents. Not all parents want their dear little babies to grow up. By the way, did I mention the boy was 13 years old?

Boy-led, patrol-method vs. adult-led, troop-method are two polar opposites with a ton of variances in between. One isn't going to find many at the extremes, just a bit more so one way or the other when comparing the various troops. So on a scale of 1 to 10, with adult-led at 1 and boy-led at 10, where does the troop fall? Now with that being said, that number isn't locked in stone. The troops are in constant flux as well. There may be an 10 adult-led troop out there that just took on a new SM who is passionate about boy-led. That 10 won't hold up for very long. The troop will begin to slide up the scale over time. So that factor is also important and one isn't going to see that particular change with a one time visit to the troop. At one time I had two units within a mile of each other that I was UC for. One was working hard on boy-led and showing progress over two year's time. The other was majorly adult-led and was on the verge of collapsing. I offered to take over because none of the multitude of adult registered leaders wanted to be SM. I said was boy-led and they took a pass, I recommended another scouter that had strong boy-led tendencies as well, They said no to him and let the troop collapse. They moved all the boys over to my other UC troop and with them the adults. Within 6 months they had erased all the efforts of the SM's boy-led efforts and the troop was showing signs of stress. I.e. boys focusing on their Eagle requirements looking for an early exit and other boys just sitting there waiting for the adults to come up with the next big project. Their high adventure trip they had been planning for this summer fell apart when the boys en mass decided they didn't want to go after 18 months of planning and preparation that was being changed by the adults. Never judge a unit by a single snapshot in time.2-3 visits over a month or two might not even be enough time to really get to know the unit and the direction it is traveling with the program.

@@blw2 Does your boy find this very discouraging, too? or are you falling into the same trap as the leaders of the troop? Start with your boy and work from there. You can always drive from the backseat. I find as UC many SM's who think they are running "boy-led" programs that really aren't. Those most likely fall into the boy-run category, but still led by the adults. Remember, you don't need to be registered to ask questions. No matter what troop YOUR SON decides to go with, you still need to do an "exit" interview with the units your son passes on. Let him identify his reasons for not picking their troop so that they have a chance to know what perception they are giving in their recruiting efforts. Not many people take the time to be honest about the process, they just disappear without a word. Every boy that has left my troop I have sought out why. Not having fun, too much work, I don't like bugs, etc. But I know and therefore I can work on the things that the boys in the troop can change. One of the things that will help your son is the fact that there are things in the program he can contribute to as far as making it better. Do you wish your son to have an ideal troop and there's nothing there to challenge him to make it better? One thing that is vital to this choice of your son, don't let your discouragement become known to him. He might become discouraged as well and simply give up on scouting altogether. Not good!

To the person who dinged me. I am glad you weren't my son's SM. And I'm glad you weren't on my adult staff when my Down's Syndrome boy was working with me on his Eagle project at age 34. I'm glad you weren't there when my ADHD boy ran the popcorn fundraiser and raised more money than any adult before him. I'm glad you were there when my Asperger's Syndrome boy designed the Council OA patch for the Centennial Jamboree. Why? Because every one of them started out with the comment, "I can't." and I refused to accept their excuses. It's also kinda strange that our Council consistently refers special needs scouts to one of two units in the council. Mine and one other on the other end of the council. So, I'm not worried. Ding me all you wish, until you've tried it, you will never know. The format applies to all people, not just the special needs ones. There's a whole world out there of people with special needs, not just those you see first hand. A Servant Leader doesn't get to pick and choose who they will serve, they serve them all.

So what are the PL's doing while the SPL is running their patrols? I've never had a problem with an SPL because I've never had more than 3 patrols and that position was not needed. If I were SPL I would simply ask the PL's what their plans were for their patrols and if there was anything I could do to help. If not I would stand around with the SM waiting for a PL to need some help of some sort. For me the SPL is there because of what he knows, not what he can do. Take care of your boys. The SPL's "boys" are the PL and when does he find time to take care of them when he's doing their job for them?

First of all I don't think I have ever told a boy they can do anything if only they try. I only ask the question, how do you know if you haven't tried. I wish I had a dollar for every scout that told me he couldn't do something that with the support and care of an adult can't help that person over their reluctance to even try. That, of course, applies to all "normal" (if there is such a thing) boys, as well as boys with Aspergers, Autism, ADD, ADHD, and a variety of other restrictive medical conditions. We would think nothing of saying to the boy who doesn't "like broccoli" but has never eaten it, how they know that. It looks gross, or smells bad, etc. but until they actually taste it they don't know. As scouters, we need to expose the boys to new experiences, new opportunities, new challenges and we will never be able to do that if they except the excuses up-front. As an adult I have many times been surprised by what some boys were able to do that when I first met them thought it would have been extremely difficult, if not impossible for them. The look in their eyes when they prove me wrong is priceless. Yes, I have had many parents tell me that their child cannot do something, only to have the child do it anyway. If I accepted the parents and/or child's original assessments, no one would ever find out what is really possible. Yes, I have had boys try and not be able to do the task, and that's okay as well. At least at this point the scout knows for sure. Scout: I can't do that (swim). SM: Have you ever tried? Scout: No SM: Then how do you know? verses Scout: I can't do that (swim). SM: Have you ever tried? Scout: Yes, my mom and dad both tried a few years back, I just can't get the hang of it. SM: Well, you're a bit older, a bit more coordinated, a bit more confident, a bit more stronger than before, what do you think about you and I giving it another try? If at that point the scout gives it his best shot and can't, then I'm heading to the Council office to see what options I have to help this boy get through his advancement/MB requirements given his limitations. I have had boys use the autism excuse, the ADD excuse, the ADHD excuse, the whatever excuse, but it all boils down to the same thing. They never tried and everyone accepted it at face value. A lot of youth tend to use their medical conditions to limit themselves to what is comfortable. If that's what they want, then fine, but if they wish to grow, develop beyond what they think their limits are then they must meet uncomfortable challenges. I personally have a fear of heights, big time. But knowing what I can and can't do allows me to cope. When I start up the ladder, I can feel physical and mental changes occurring. I do not overcome them, but I can adjust for them. Just yesterday I put a wind vane up on the peak of the 2 story garage. It took me 3-4 times longer than most people because I don't move fast in high places. I did it. I didn't like it, It was uncomfortable, It wasn't necessary, but my wife was pleased it was put up. I also needed to put up bat houses this summer. Not a pleasant experience either. What if I let that limitation in life define me? There were times at Philmont that would have affected the whole team if I didn't push through the situation. If I stood at the bottom of Baldy's slag pile and said I couldn't climb that, the whole trek would have been different. It was probably the longest afternoon of my life, but I was the first to reach the top. I found a faint switch-back trail near the top and I simply walked gingerly to the top. Everyone said I cheated, but I didn't care. Excuses mean nothing. Trying and failing is far better than not trying at all. As SM it is my job to make the opportunities to try. If nothing else, I do find out where on the scale the boys really area. I have a fear of heights, but I have repelled off the top of a 8 story building as part of Emergency Rescue Training.. Was it fun and exciting? Nope, but I did it and I could probably do it again if I had to. Oh, by the way, I raised a son who was on the ADHD spectrum, so I have a pretty good handle on what a parent faces with child with challenges.

http://www.alpsmountaineering.com/ I don't know about the old site, but this site doesn't look "sketchy". The site has contact information so you should be able to contact them and ask if the program is still being used. I also looked at the scoutdirect.com and it is under the hiker direct program. https://www.hikerdirect.com/hd/sales_items I registered to see what is going on with them but it does look like there is a direct connection to Alps Mountaineering brand equipment listed under sales items after a quick cursory look at the site..

Churches have tolerated Weekend Wanderers for years and have survived nicely without them. It's an issue of commitment, not calendars.

Congrats to your Son, well done.

Maybe someday these people will realize that the phrase, "Well, it sounded like a good idea at the time." isn't reserved for the back woods hillbillys, it can easily apply to the hillbillys of the halls of academia as well.

And remember, when you take the YPT training, read the book, don't just look at the pictures. (Sorry, @@gumbymaster but your comment was just too good to just let pass by.) Now the moderators can slap my wrist and we can go back to our regularly scheduled programming......

@@gumbymaster OMG, Cub Scouts now have a triple X award? When did that happen?

Or if one is Norse - krumkakke