Stosh

It's not like anyone is transitioning from a sports car to a semi-tractor rig. There is not that much variance in the new requirements. Okay, Little Johnny did an old requirement that isn't required anymore? So what! He just knows more than the next guy. And now he has a new requirement? Okay, again, what'll that take to complete? Another week or so? The requirement changed? He should have enough experience to work through the differences without a problem, if he hadn't started that requirement and it's changed, then just do the new one. I'm thinking there's a mountain being built here because of the inflexibility of the adults to make the course corrections. I'm thinking the "hardships" this is going to place on boys isn't going to amount to much in the off chance that some boy isn't going to make his Eagle. And if there's the off-chance that one is really running a boy-led program, why are all the adults in a tizzy? Offer up the challenge to the boys and let them come up with a solution. Train 'em. Trust 'em. Let them lead!

Like all of these requirements, the interpretations will always run rampant. After all, roadside cleanup is a conservation project around here. One can always find a stretch of road that has trash on it.

@@Raignis Welcome to the forum. As far as the volunteering is concerned, go for it. Take the training, pace yourself, and enjoy the journey. Sounds like you have your heart in the right place, so 90% of the work is already done.

Even though we are in a somewhat rural region of the country, finding enough conservation project is a bit dicy. Even most Eagle Projects are not conservation projects. It should get interesting.

In my troop the understanding is the CC deals with people over 18 and the SM deals with people under 18. If a parent has a problem with the way the troop is run, they do not go to the PL, the SPL, nor the SM. Their first point of contact is the CC. Then if the CC feels it's a justified concern or he/she doesn't have the whole story, then the CC and parents approach the SM. If it's an issue with the SPL, then the CC, parents and SM aproach the SPL, if it's the PL causing the concern, then the CC, parents, SM, SPL approach the PL. That's the way it is structured. In reality most of the issues get resolved with contact with the CC and maybe the SM if need be. I've never had a situation where parent concerns have ever involved getting the boys into the mix but the structure is there if needed. If a parent addresses a boy directly with a negative concern they may have the boys are all instructed to get the SM involved in the situation immediately. The SM has the right to involve the CC as necessary as well. The more people involve, the more transparency and the more the petty issues get solved and off the table. If it's a legitimate concern, the more adults involved in the situation the better the resolution. Nothing we do is ever done in a smoke-filled back room. Everything is out in the open. Only extremely disruptive things are dealt with behind the scenes and tend to be very un-Scoutlike in how they are handled.

I know what they recommend, but I also know what they will allow outside their recommendations and are two different animals. Touting Boy Led, Patrol Method and then focusing in on membership drives and FOS and letting the units do whatever it is they do, is not the solution to the problem. When the District Commissioner comes and asks why my troop seems to be doing well with the patrol method and other units aren't, then it isn't my problem to fix. I don't need fixing and BSA doesn't seem to be really interested in promoting what they are expecting when it comes to their recommendations on programming. Until they get beyond the curious stage, I don't see much effective promotion of BSA patrol method going to be happening any time soon. Last time I saw the BSA literature it still shows the standard org chart with the SM at the top. That's the standard business management org chart. Until the local businesses adopt the patrol method of operation for their strategy, I'm thinking they will do well with the management structure. However, the patrol method does not adapt itself well to the top-down management model. Those that do accept that model tend to be adult led and patrol method in name only.

1) They have to a certain extent. They've been on that slippery slope for some time now. 2) I believe BSA and GSUSA have an agreement not to. 3) Start listening to the kids to see what they want and quit running a "program" that adults think the kids want.

@@JoeBob is correct with the knowing the rules up-front. A lot of troops have manuals explaining all the do's and don'ts of the troop and they and their parents sign away their lives to make sure the boys comply. But then when something relatively minor hits the fan for a deicated scout the rules get bent, and the fun begins. My second rule, "Look and act like a Scout" has served me well for many years. My standard comment is, "Is that your interpretation of how a Scout is supposed to act? (or look?). 99% of the time it corrects the problem. If they can justify their actions then I'm all for hearing about it. Usually the ensuing conversation brings clarification to the situation well enough no punishment is ever doled out. If it is necessary, it usually established by the culprit and is self-policed. Word gets around the troop pretty fast so the boys pretty much know what's okay and what's not.

Compared to doing an Eagle Project, learning some extra knots and one more thing to memorize is not a biggie in the greater scheme of life. It gives the older boys more one-one time with the new boys working with them on the knots. With the new boys looking for new friends this might work out well. I'm trying to find the down side to it all.

The structure I use for the NSP is the PL's right-hand man is is APL. He's the one there that supports the PL work WITHIN the patrol. The SPL is the PL's left-hand man. He's the one there that supports the PL work OUTSIDE the patrol. If the SPL has a question, he needs to come to the PL. The TG is the #1 guide/mentor for the PL to help him understand how to work with these two support systems. If the PL needs the SPL who's off with other duties, he's the go-to guy to find him. Yes, there's a lot of work involved with the NSP that is more than any of the other patrols, but as far as I can see, there is no role for an adult in any of it. It sounds as if your TG isn't ready for doing his job with the new patrol and is seeking support from an adult. I would suggest if this is happening on a regular basis, more forethought needs to be put into the process. One scout, Den Chief for the 2nd Year Webelos boys (12 month commitment with National Award as the goal). When they cross over into Boy Scouts, he merely continues on (without the "DL" adult) and becomes the new TG. If you are using the BSA recommendations of SM management delegating to SPL who is management delegating to PL's who are management delegating to their members, you're on your own. I haven't found that process to be a very efficient way to run the troop using the patrol method keeping it boy led.

But what you learn in Scouting is a forever lesson in character. Dancing and sports will last only as long as you are physically able to do so. One can still follow the Scout Oath and Law and be restricted to a nursing home. Not many nursing homes have basketball pickup games. Come to think of it, I don't ever recall seeing a gymnasium in a nursing home, but I still visit some of the Old Guard Scouters there. The ROI is far greater in Scouting than any other program out there, yet the complaints just keep on rolling in.

Solves that problem, doesn't it. It also solves a lot of confusion for the boys too. One book, one set of requirements, no big deal, thousands of boys will be using the new requirements and do just fine.

Kick them all out! If the boys are leading what purpose do the adults have in the meeting? I find that 95% of my job as SM is keeping adults out of the boys' hair. "The boys can't do it without adult help, mentoring, directing and guiding!" ..... "How would you know? You've never given them the chance to try." "The boys were struggling with the problem, so I offered up some help." ..... "And you thus took away their opportunity to work it out on their own, by emphasizing they weren't good enough to do it on their own." "If left alone the boys will never be comfortable asking for help." .... "Then that's a problem they're going to need to work out on their own." Occasionally the boys come up with a solution to their problems that I think is a really good idea. Most of the time they don't and they struggle until they get something that will get them through the situation. I really don't think they are capable of coming up with brilliant ideas the first time around, but I'm not going to have my adults running around making sure they don't fail. My lesson for leadership for my boys is: "Take care of your boys." My lesson for adult leadership is: "Make opportunities for the boys, don't take them away."

And there you have it. Parents aren't going to pay for something their boy isn't getting. "What's in it for me" is the #1 motivation for contributing to FOS. People who feel this way will justify their stand by using the guilt by association model. If BSA is wasting money on STEM trucks to tour the country, and all the local councis are overcharging summer camps to make ends meet, why should my money go to the troop where it'll be wasted. Of course they don't make the association that the local troop is watching every penny and milking it for all it's worth. And the high cost of uniforms and such? BSA has always overcharged for it's products and a lot of people felt it was worth it. I remember as a kid standing in front of the scout counter at the J. C. Penny's needing to buy a cap, necker, slide, shirt, patches, belt, pants and socks. My family was not well off financially so if I was going to be in Scouts, I had to pay my own way. I'm thinking the difference in attitude between me and contemporary parents might be the world of Scouting I grew up in is not the world of Scouting of today. Today all you need is the shirt and a couple of patches and you're golden...... Whatever it takes to get by with the minimum investment for the greatest return. By the way, how much does a Eagle status cost nowadays?

I remember the day when Religion, Politics and Women were forbidden topics in polite company. I seemed to coinside hand-in-hand with a higher level of tolerance as well. In today's world all those topics are open for debate and the polarizing affect has gone a long way to support our zero-tolerance levels in all aspects of modern society. I'm hoping this comment doesn't push this thread into the I&P, but once one waters down the requirements, the Oath and the Law, it really doesn't leave much room for character development as has been the historical foundation of Scouting in prior years.

@@Cambridgeskip Yes, I currently serve a very small troop, but that's not always been the case. The largest troop I have worked with was 50+ as ASM, the largest troop as SM was 32. I have dealt with groups up to 60+ in non-scouting settings and I can assure you that size does matter. A disruptive boy in a 5 member troop is far more destructive than in a 40 member troop. In a larger setting he can be isolated into a patrol of just is buddies and it goes a long way towards minimizing his negative efforts to the rest of the patrols. It also allows the adults to rein him in a bit and keep an eye on him. One must also realize that there are different types of disruption and the reaction to it by adults is different. Your example of your older leader is very good at pointing it out. On the one hand the boy with the lantern was seeking attention and he was going to get it whether it was positive or negative in nature. The repair job was a positive that he enjoyed well enough to seek more of it because in the long run the positive always is the most productive. On the other hand when facing bullies and other tyrant types of negative behavior the brick wall is the best reaction. Obviously years of experience on the part of this gentleman was honed appropriately. The area of ocial science studies addresses it and will push the knowledge and awareness of such actions into earlier years as is the case of your female leader. It is unfortunate that observing these types was happenstance. It would have been quite useful to tap into their knowledge and experience and have them bring that to the table for the troop. Usually we don't think of that until we are waist deep in allegators and then it's kinda late in the game. BSA probably could do a better job of training SM/ASM's in this area with a few tools of the trade from more educated and expereinced scouters. Might be a bit more helpful at University of Scouting than some new cobbler recipe.

Once one makes it a useless Scout Law, then it pretty much invalidates the rest as well. No matter how much effort is put into the living the Oath and Law, we all fall short at some time or another. But what we're suggesting now with the 12th Law is to pretty much let it slide with whatever the boy thinks is okay. What if the boy's interpretation of Trustworthy means trustworthy to only certain people? What if the boy's interpretation of Obedience is Constitutional freedom to do what he wants? Once one starts jacking these Laws around they become nothing more than a philosophical parlor game. The Laws used to be chiseled in stone, now they are merely written in the sand.

Just about every multiple choice test I've taken over the years always as D) None of the above. It's always a freebie question because most of the time A), B), and C) are obviously stupid.

First of all @@JustThinking welcome to the forum. Secondly I totally agree with you. I have been an Arrowman for 20 years now and the only thing I've done since Ordeal/Brotherhood is pay dues to the chapter and not receive any newsletters in return. It simply isn't a big deal anymore. The only "service" they ever do is for the council camp and even that is minimal. If your OA chapter isn't active and it's only a "mutual, sel-admiration society", then put your energy into the troop and don't worry about it. The really sad part of it all is that as boy-led, they do not ask OA to come in and do an election unless they get a request to do so from any boy in the troop. It's been years since I have been involved in a troop that has had an OA election. I have a new troop now so the issue hasn't come up, none of my boys are elegible at the present time. Don't give up on Scouting just because of the council lodge. My troop of inelegible boys do more service projects that the OA does on an annual basis. That's good enough for me.

As long as this is not the I&P section and if one were to be a moderator they might want to keep the snarky editorialisms to a minimum. If one were to go back and look at all the postings I have made on this subject, I said, not everyone has the skill, background and experience to handle disruptive boys. I also commented that as society changes it may eventually expect more and more of already burdened SM/ASM's in dealing with problems like this. I am sure there are plenty of professionally trained teachers and such that have had some training in this area and given a few years willl probably have a lot more experience, but even that will not fit the bill for all SM/ASM's out there with problem scouts. I don't expect everyone to have 45 years experience of working with young people as I have, but one has to start somewhere and throwing in the towel at the first sign of problems is not the answer and I don't think Rock Doc was doing that. But did he learn something along the way so next time he will be better prepared? I'm thinking his concern expressed on the forum was a way to seek information from those with experience. That goes a long way to cut to the chase, but to simply say, "we had a difficult boy so we tossed in the towel, so you should too", is not a useful bit of advice.

I would think that as soon as their registration is completed with the troop they wish to join, they can start working on rank. Cross-overs are merely ceremonial in nature. The $$ and registration is what makes it official.

Tracking used to be a T-FC requirement in Scouting. I guess the powers to be don't think such skill fits the STEM requirements of today. For the past two weeks I have been deer hunting on my 9 acres. I know where every deer trail, every bedding area, and every graze and water source used by the local herd. All that and I don't have to fork over the big bucks for trail cameras either. I can also tell you where every squirrel area is and how many squirrels one will see if they sit in any place on those 9 acres. I also document every time anyone tresspassess on my land without permission as well. Blazed out walking trails and marked the boundaries of my land and my two neighbors with their permission. I don't need a compass because I know the land, but for fine tuning the boundaries, it is very practical. I have my deer this year, my two neighbors with the trail cams are still working on theirs.... I has always surprised me now much outdoor woodsman skills I use on a daily basis. Taking a class this weekend on tanning hides..... Never too old to learn.

@Eagledad you are correct, but it would be nice if one-size-fits-all when it comes to BSA. Unfortunately not everyone no matter how well meaning they try, just have to pass it off to those with more skill and/or experience. I think we are seeing more and more of this behavior as the family unit of mom/dad/kids breaks down. Young people just aren't ready to handle those difficult situations and they lash out at the world around them. Out of my 5 scouts only one is in a natural mom/dad/siblings setting. If it gets any worse, we're going to all need Social Worker degrees to be SM's.

Did you fill out an application? Yes. Can you tie a square knot? Yes. Do you have a problem with being physically fit? Nope. .... .... Have you done your duty to your (G/g)od? Yes. Well then, welcome to the troop, your're now a First Class Scout. Sounds like everyone's pump now is sufficiently primed to pencil whip this requirement right out of existence. And who said counting membership bodies was a the sole jurisdiction of the DE's.

As I stated before, not everyone has the ability to handle disruptive scouts. Some who are minorly disruptive and those who are destructive. I guess I'm just a sucker for punishment because I don't have many "limits" when it comes to Loyal, Courteous, Kind, Cheerful and Friendly. After all, someone once said, patience is a virtue. Not trying to be judgmental, it's just that not everyone's built the same way.