Stosh

And of course there's the third option here.... Option #1: Accumulate all the information from GTA, BSA policy, training literature and come up with a set of rules and regulations that fit the unit's expectation and can feel comfortable that they have properly judged the subjective issue reasonably. (Adult led using SMART management methods) Option #2: Have the adult leaders and a few "key" youth (especially those who will yes-man the adults' directives) put together an extensive by-law document that covers every iota of possibility and codefy it so that everyone knows up front exactly what it's going to take to get the pencil whip for advancement. (Adult led using executive enforcement of codefied legalism method) @@Krampus, this is the eagle-eye, over-the-shoulder approach of constant review to make sure they haven't nor are tempted to veer off course. Option #3: Just ask the boy if he did his job and let him judge, prove, or whatever his accomplishment for the advancement. To me this is what the SMC is all about. If all the boys knew THEY had to prove their accomplishment rather than just do something to see what adults judge to be valid, they would operate under a different set of judgements. They would be working for their own self-worth, not the approval of adults. For example, I have never been involved in POR's except for the SM approval of special projects in lieu of a POR position. If a patrol comes to me and says they have selected Freddie as their PL, the clock starts ticking for Freddie. At the end of 4-6 months (depending on the rank) Freddie and his buddies come to the SPL and say Freddie has or has not fulfilled his obligation as PL for the patrol. Now Freddie can be the biggest con man and has dupped his buddies for a full six months or he could have rolled up his sleeves and really done the work of a PL. That judgement comes from the recipients of the POR, not some legal code of adult expectations nor the by-laws of consensus of the unit. The PL is under no other expectation other than meeting the needs of his patrol members and that is all that really counts. Same holds true for the self-proclaimed QuarterMaster. After six months, what do the people he was answerable to have to say about his work and does he deserve to move on in rank? To me that is how my unit operates because for me that is how boy led, patrol method should ideally work.

People seem to be totally surprised when political things like this happen in the troop/packs/crews. At one time or another, every unit goes through these types of things. The more adult oriented the unit is, the more apt it is to happen. The boys generally are not saavy as adults, neither are they experienced in such behavior, and if they are, their buddies' naivite usually brings it to a halt. They generally don't have the experience that goes along with sophisticated manipulation. They are more into self absorption and worry more about themselves and what others think than devising plans to take over and run a group such as a unit. A lot of adults have this type of confidence, not many youth do. Yes, jumping ship will help for a while, but eventually the sludge from others will eventually spill over into the new Nervana. I find that those that get away with it for any length of time do one of two things. They bully and power their way through every situation or they accumulate allies so that they leverage the situation in their favor. People who don't do one of these two options either run the risk of getting bulldozed or they have to leave the area. @@Renax127 has now become fully aware of how this works. It's nothing more than political posturing. To go to another unit will require starting the process all over from square one with a new set of political powers. The one thing that is basically true in 99% of Boy Scout units is that although the consensus of talk-the-talk is not the reality of walk-the-walk. The reality of boy led, patrol method is seldom achieved and never long-lived. The question one needs to ask themselves is how much political BS can one handle at any given time in any given social grouping? Renax127 will probably never find his ideal boy-led unit, but there are those out there that at least struggle at making the attempt to be. Is this unit boy-led? If not is anyone on-board with trying to be one? Are the boys wanting to be boy-led? First visit: Are you a boy-led unit? No, but we're trying to move in that direction, but having a ton of trouble, the boys aren't ready for such a change yet. Now that's the answer one is looking for, join up, roll up your sleeves and get to work.

Leadership in service to others. One doesn't need a costume or dance to do that. Every service project on the district or council level for the past 4 years has been touted by the DE's. One would think it should fall to the OA boys, but they're totally non-functioning. It wouldn't take much to pick up the lead on any of these.....

We have no adult nor youth made rules for being active other than if one is registered in the troop and treated as such until one's registration runs out. POR's are validated with the subjective measurement of "did you take care of your boys." If they don't think so, then getting someone to sign off on it is a bit difficult. Usually it is pretty obvious to everyone If one is selected to be PL and then someone else is selected a month later because you weren't doing the job? Then finding someone to sign off on it is going to be a challenge. It's a pretty well known assumption around the troop that if one doesn't put any effort into the troop, they will probably not get anything out of it as well. Everyone is treated as peers, not parent/child. In all honesty, the issue has never come up in any of the troops I have been SM of.

Two thoughts went through my head when viewing the video.... 1) Why is it our kids are too scared to sit on Santa's lap? We must be teaching our kids to be whooses. 2) Maybe it would be more polically correct to dump OA Indian culture and go with these guys.....

It's not quite clear, but the way I read it was approval process for LDS units must be done nationally. If the LDS are using it as their youth ministry program, then I seen no problem with their approach.

On any of the survival training events, the first thing they tell you is that there are no rules, just survival. If that be the case... SKOAL!

One always has to take into consideration that youth today are masters of getting adults to cater to their every whim and want. Ever wonder why we have 40 year olds living in their parents' basement? I have had boys that were truly experts in getting adults to run and fetch on a regular basis.. ..... in a way that's some pretty good leadership, if not excellent management, if one thinks about it for a while. There are a ton of parents and scouters out there that are completely buffaloed by the kids today. 50 years ago, it was unheard of to think that if one were to sit long enough some adult is going to come around and jump through hoops to cheer you up or try and make your day nicer. Mr. S.... I can't find the dutch oven in the trailer. Did you look everywhere? Yep. I saw it in there just before we left. It's not there now. And at this point the adult goes to the trailer and hauls out the DO to prove his point, totally oblivious to the con job he just fell prey to. My routine? Mr. S.... I can't find the dutch oven in the trailer. Bummer! Running a boy led program is a lot more difficult than running an adult led program.

For those who live in the urban settings, I would think they would do well. We do not do coupon books, but other organizations in the area do and one can get some pretty good value for the cost of the book. However, some of the coupons are for restaurants, golf-courses, etc. that are an hour away and either we give them to someone who will use them, or simply toss them. Unless we are making the trip anyway, those businesses across town (20 minute drive) don't get used. I've been part of Mother's Day flower sales (geraniums) and sold by the semi-trailer full in the rural areas, but with the professional landscapers of the urban areas, they don't do as well. It just boils down to whatever works for your situation, go for it! I don't think that mandatory fundraisers are a one-size-fits-all solution for all troops.

@@JustThinking One always have to take into consideration discrimination is a two-way street with multiple agendas and variable levels of intolerance. Once one gets a good handle on all those dynamics then the world makes more sense than common sense.

@@desertrat77 I remember that as well. A bit messy and difficult to get the holes small, square and non-leaking. It would solve the problem of piercing the yoke and venting the steam if not as careful as one shoud be. A 5 minute balancing act over the fire with two sticks is a challenge as well. I've done it, but if one is looking for a 2 egg breakfast, it could take a while.

Glad you started reading what I write, and not what you think I've written. The only thing I have said was wrong was with the troops that run an adult led, troop method program that is contrary to appropriate leadership/character development of young men. It also applies to the adult led programs that THINK they are boy led. There's a ton of those out there, too. Those are the ones that push the management development rather than leadership development. Of course none of that addresses the femininization of the Boy Scout movement nor the moral issue of going with the Chamberlain approach towards the demands of various political agendas

@@Peregrinator You are correct on the Inquisition. Once Christianity became political (Middle Ages) it took on the kind of extremism that we see in the islamic countries of today. I learned way back in school that the problem of: Does the Pope hold the stirrup for the King or does the King hold the stirrup for the Pope? Are the government leaders or the religious leaders running the show. A lot of Christians died trying to work that out, now it's the Muslim's turn to play that game. The only difference is rockets, guns and aircraft collatterally kill a lot more people quicker than swords and pyres. No one out there has a monopoly on stupid. Oh, and by the way, this is why our forefathers put the freedom of religion/freedom from a state religion in the Constitution... to avoid this kind of abuse of power.

This is one of the big pit-falls of a boy-led program. The parents will not find the developing youth leadership condusive to a quick end-run to Eagle. The troop will look "messy" and chaotic most of the time and will be misunderstood. I was asked to leave a troop where this happened. The biggest complainer was the parent of the unmedicated ADHD boy who ran the most successful popcorn sale the troop had ever had, while at the same time held the position of PL of the older boys. The reason I was given for dismissal was I expected to much leadership from the boys. The scout became "disruptive" and was also asked to leave 4 months after the adults took over control of the troop once again. Boys with the knowledge of managment and use of those skills are acceptable in our culture. Boys who are confident, dynamic and charismatic with leadership are not. Adults can say, "Follow me, Boys!" A boy can't.

One has to remember the heat source involved. Warm air above the fire is a lot "cooler" than the intense heat of the coals. I am surprised with burying the eggs, you didn't get an explosion. The whole idea of the "hard boiled" egg is cooking it slowly. One can scramble an egg on a hot griddle in less than a minute, but it takes 5+ minutes to hard boil an egg. The scrambled egg will vent off steam, an unbroken shell can't. The explosion arises from heat that will generate steam within the egg causing the pressure against the shell. It's a little like gunpowder. in exposed air, it just fizzles, but confine it in anything even a small pipe, and it's going to explode. It's that build up of pressure you need worry about. Rolling the egg above the cool heat above the coals, gives a slow even heat which you are interested in getting. The microwave issue is really tricky because everything I have ever read is NEVER put an unbroken egg in a microwave, unless you own it and the wife is out of town for the 2-3 days it's going to take to clean it up. The recommended method of "boiling" an egg in a microwave is to crack the egg into a small microwave safe bowl, pierce the yoke with a toothpick and then cook. The major problem with microwaves is they cannot provide even heat like stoves, ovens, and even campfires. This is why they have the rotating carosels in them. If you ever wonder how this work, put a cup of milk in and watch it foam. One half will foam and the other won't, inside an egg, you will have a boiling egg and the other side raw. You have no idea the mess that happens under that condition. I don't remember if it was you or someone else that was wondering about test to destruction, but this would be a very impressive and exciting option for that activity. Low heat (212 degrees) and a long span of time. Rolling the egg on two sticks will take the full 5 minutes as would boiling Seriously, it doesn't take much heat to cook an egg. You can be assured that on a hot day in the sun on a dark surface, yes, you can fry and egg. Same will hold true for a fire heated flat rock.

On the other hand, I have seen all of these work well in troops. Maybe having been a UC, one realizes that there are many ways of running a successful troop. I was once an ASM for a very successful troop that had a very experienced, iron-fisted, WB/Silver Beaver SM. Most of the units in the district were envious of what he was able to do. The troop alternated between Philmont and Sea Base. He also rotated around to 4-5 different summer camps. The troop attended every National Jamboree. All adults were trained to the WB level. They were also the corp of MB counselors that serviced the troop only. They were identified as a "Quaity Unit" every year. There were no same aged patrols, no NSP's, no patrol guides, no venture patrols. There were no patrols whatsoever, The troop trailer functioned as the troop kitchen. Every year he would take on 20-25 new boys and by the end of the year, they always ended up with about 20-25 hold outs of the elite from the group moving on to eventual Eagle. They produced a ton of Eagles over the years with some ECOH's having 5-6 Scouts being honored. Hundreds of boys never made it through their first year. Eventually he was kicked out of scouting. What one person defines as success another may not be what others see as success.

One cannot Pollyanna smile oneself out of a bad situation. Sounds like it's time to move on, these politics aren't going away anytime soon and there are plenty of other well run troops out there that can offer a positive scouting experience for both parent and scout. Sounds like the decision has already been made. There are many good opportunities out there, one does not have to settle for the one bad one. Best of luck finding a new troop/crew.

Yep, if the boat is sinking because there's a hole in the bottom, one can always poke another hole so the water runs out, too.

Hmmm, winter survival you say???? Where did one find an egg in the dead of winter? If in the local produce section, stop and buy a paper cup while you're there. I seriously think that if one were to survive in the winter, looking for eggs would be rather futile. I could be wrong, so if one does find a unfozen egg in a snowbank somewhere, I would heat up a flat rock and then cook on it. Cooking in coals needs to be tempered with the idea that ash is the inslulator, not the shell. 2 sticks suspended over the coals, roll the egg back and forth along the two parallel sticks. One doesn't need much heat, only 212-degrees, the same as boiling water. The egg will not explode on the lower temperature and cook just fine. If you do over it it, it will explode.... Seriously explode, like egg on everything within 10' of the egg.

@@ghjim What I refer to as the Golden Age of Scouting was the first 50, maybe 60 years of scouting. Since 1970-ish, thing have changed and changed dramatically, most of which was not for the betterment of the program nor it's membership.

I've been in your "politics-of-the-troop" situation in the past. It's kind a rough for a while, but once one moves on to bigger and better things, it doesn't look so bad. About 4 units ago, I was so frustrated I swore off scouting for good. Did it twice in the second unit, the third had me removed as SM and now the 4th, I'm on my 3 year as SM of a struggling SM wondering if all the work is worth it. Still here. Sounds a lot like level 4 conflict. (Game Playing level). Keep it in mind one does not have to play their game.

People joined BSA with a certain level of expectation. For a while that expectation was provided. Now as "times" change the program that used to be the anchor/glue holding itself together providing something unique and valuable. So if expectations change and the programs change, why would anyone think for a moment that the original people in the program will continue with it when it no longer meets their expectations? I have suspected for some time now that because of what I have, my skill set isn't really working for the current program. Yes, I still adhere to the Scout Law, but maybe I don't say A Scout is Loyal quite as forcefully as I have in past years. Time passes in only one direction. One cannot go back, and so if the future isn't as bright as one would want, there are plenty of other opportunities out there to be considered. The great leadership/character development program for young men that started out many moons ago, is not what the people want today. So, don't try and pretend it to be. It used to be a Scout was known for his honesty. Being part of the Scouting movement in America for 50+ years isn't necessarily the blessing everyone wishes it to be. Maybe the only consolation the old guard can retain is the idea that for a brief moment, they where one of the few that got a chance to be part of the Golden Age of Scouting in America.

Not many organizations are set up to give out free space for meetings on a regular basis without it being somehow connected to it as something other than an "outside group getting a free ride on the rent for meetings and storage." If the CO does not see it as part of it's own program, then they have reinterpreted it differently than the intent set up by it's charter. The CO has the right to say who can and who can't be part of the group, when and where it meets (for free), etc. That's not a normal set up for outside groups coming in and using their space. Some CO's don't care, but then some do and it's just a result of the individual choices, not the structure in which it exists.

The CO I have now, I, too am not a member of the church, nor am I a member of that denomination. I was looking for a place to have a Scout troop and they said yes. If they now say no, I'll just move on down the street and look for another place to hold the troop. If the troop drops the uniform and charter and stays on with the church, then I'll just have to start another troop. I've done it before, it's not the end of the world.

I've always played by the rules but what most people don't know is I still carry a personal million dollar liability umbrealla over and above what BSA provides. With the Venture Crew I had an additonal 2 million dollar policy and that totaled a whopping $5 million liability coverage that I often wondered if it would be enough. What a lot of people don't realize is that one distruntled scout parent can empty your bank accounts and retirement accounts faster than a computer hacker and do it legally. People complain a lot about the cost of liability insurance, car insurance, homeowners umbrella policies, etc., but without them the average volunteer and his family could be wiped out in a heartbeat. Ignorance is bliss until the letter from the lawyer shows up in your mailbox or the deputy comes knocking with a warrant. 45 years of working with youth have taught me a few things along the way. There ain't no such thing as too much insurance.