Stosh

A lot of the issue is local around here. Our state along with all the other PC people out there have required our school mascots to change away from Indian references. One of our schools had Red Raider with an Indian on horseback, and had to change. They changed the logo to a knight on horseback. A lot of people didn't that that was enough, Yet another local school has Vikings as their mascot and the Norwegians don't seem to be too terribly upset because after all the vikings were white people and don't count. The real kicker was the school in our region which was located just outside of an old Indian reservation that the vast majority of students were ethnic Indians. They too were told dump their mascot and logo. That didn't go over very well. Our OA has been in touch with our local tribes and do their best, but over the years they have only functioned in an advisory capacity. The boys and their dancing and ceremonies are not monitored by the tribes for respectability and/or authenticity. Maybe there are lodges out there that have close ties to the local tribes, but in my limited experience, I haven't seen it.

A lot of the issue is local around here. Our state along with all the other PC people out there have required our school mascots to change away from Indian references. One of our schools had Red Raider with an Indian on horseback, and had to change. They changed the logo to a knight on horseback. A lot of people didn't that that was enough, Yet another local school has Vikings as their mascot and the Norwegians don't seem to be too terribly upset because after all the vikings were white people and don't count. The real kicker was the school in our region which was located just outside of an old Indian reservation that the vast majority of students were ethnic Indians. They too were told dump their mascot and logo. That didn't go over very well. Our OA has been in touch with our local tribes and do their best, but over the years they have only functioned in an advisory capacity. The boys and their dancing and ceremonies are not monitored by the tribes for respectability and/or authenticity. Maybe there are lodges out there that have close ties to the local tribes, but in my limited experience, I haven't seen it.

It's just a matter of time.

Nope, the charter bus driver that takes the boys up to BWCA for a week doesn't need to be registered either. The driver isn't part of the unit any more than a cab driver or any other fior-hire livery. Otherwise, the train engineer that takes the boys out to Philmont will need to be registered.... kinda dumb to assume that. If the boys fly out to Philmont, do both the pilot and co-pilot need to be registered? Dumb rules produce dumb results.

Well, nothing like riding the downward spiral all the way to the bottom. One would think that there would be a few arrowmen who would take seriously the honor for neighboring tribes that would get them off their butts and do something, anything for that matter. If one isn't going to honor them, then dump the program so as to not embarrass them. So, in fact, my "gripe" has everything to do with fellas who like to honor neighboring tribes.

I would sign off on any PL POR if the members of his patrol felt he had done a good job for them regardless of his attendance at outings or meetings. If they're happy, I'm happy. If the patrol members were NOT happy with their PL and replaced him, he would not make his 4-6 months in the position and the whole discussion would never happen. Right now my entire troop consists of boys in 6th and 7th grades. But when I did have older boys in my previous troop, the attendance always ran in the 90% range. Very few boys ever missed an outing or meeting. We have a rule that Family, Church and School are a higher priority than Scouting, and still the numbers were up there. The boys that have Eagled under me have not taken the traditional Life rank sabbatical that one often sees in troops struggling with their older boys.

In that case, they can continue on their present course of action. If boys find brotherhood, cheerfulness and service in their own troops, why bother with OA? One would think in order to perpetuate success, they might want to get out front and show the way (leadership).

My boys have a tendency to do what they did last year because they know that it works and they had a good time. While I'm not involved in the planning of troop or patrol activities, I do take a lot of pictures of my personal adventures. When I go kayaking in the area, I take pictures. When I go camping, I take pictures. When I go on a trip, I take pictures. I'm "elderly" so I have an excuse to drag out my picture book and show off my grandkids. But instead I show off bike trails around San Francisco, Museums around Seattle, hiking trails around Boulder, kayaking routes through the Everglades..... It does get the boys thinking that there is a lot more to life than the little box they live in at the present time. If I were to put on a preso of my pictures of all the places I have gone to, It would fill up multiple long evenings of boring adventures all over the place. If the boys aren't interested, I've done my due diligence, but I don't cotton to the idea that what they are planning is boring, because my response to that is always, "Whose fault is that?"

Maybe I might be a little "out there" but life outside the box is a lot better than being stuck in the box.

You and I are about 99% of the time on the same page. But remember when you and your buddies go out fishing is it the same as when you and a scout go out fishing? You assume your buddy knows what he's doing until he does something stupid.... You start out trusting him to do what's right. If he asks for help, fine, if not fine. But when the fishin's done for the day, you have caught a ton of fish and he's got nothing to show for the day, do you start teaching him better ways to fish or do you start a campfire, break out a couple of cold brewskis hand him one, sit down in your camp chair and with a big grin on your face, ask , "Well, how was your day?" You're not his coach, not his mentor, not anything but a buddy. If he's interested in knowing what you did to catch fish, he'll ask if not, watching the fire with a buddy and a brew is still a good thing. The "following" training is not the same as teaching him how to tie the leader to the line or what bait to use. There comes a time when training takes on a whole different personnae. You'll know it when you see it. It's a necessary next step with your boys and their leadership development.

@@berestie Welcome to the forum. :)

"Anything can be made somewhat pleasurable with the right creativity." Well when one can come up with a creative sollution that makes poverty, broken homes, bullying, domestic abuse, abandonment, cultural clashes, injury, sickness, lose of friend or relative, and such pleasurable, be sure to have them share with us. I deal with this kind of reality all the time with my boys. I would love to hear about the right creativity. Until then the color of the sky in my world is still blue on a good day.

At first one must use the traditional "training" approach for the new boy. That's all he has ever known in his life. It's what's done at home, at school, at church, at whatever.....If nothing else, that's how one get's the boy's attention an convey information in a process he's familiar with. However, as time passes, that process needs to change, and it doesn't happen because of the boy, but because of the adult instructor. I don't know if it was a Freudian Slip or just a short cut, but you left out a vital part of the quote, "Trust 'em". This is where adults have the most trouble. Often times adults can't trust one another, how are they ever going to learn to trust a 12 year old kid? Until one learns to trust these boys with THEIR program, the adults will continue to look over their shoulder, place judgements, and constantly offer up alternative actions "for them to consider", they really are held back in their leadership opportunities. And behold, don't think for a moment that the boys haven't figured this all out! They ain't the dumb little kids we often make them out to be. They are watching closely, VERY closely at any and all differences Scouting leadership might offer them as promoted in the PR handout. When that doesn't happen, they're gone. Once they are trained, I truly trust them. I make it a concerted effort not to interfere, judge or even tease or joke about their leadership. I stand back and watch the slow-motion train wrecks all the time. I also see their major accomplishements. I am their peer, not their instructor, guidance counselor, mentor, father image, director, coach... I am their peer as much as they are mine. My boys know that I will trust them as long as they don't ever give me a reason not to. The ball always stays in their court. These boys get the same advice I have given my freinds for 60 years. When my buddies and I would get together to chat about life and get a "I did a major stupid thing, the other day" comment, I did not shift into coaching, directing, counseling, or any of those kinds of roles, I just ordered another round and said with a smile, "I bet you never do that again." and life goes on. The boys know when the screwed things up, they don't need me to remind them, or judge them, or punish them. They just need a buddy that accepts them, faults and all and then moves on. Let them lead. For good or bad, I fall into place with all the other boys that follow along, and make sure my other adults do the same. I don't know how many times over the course of my life time I have had someone whisper in my ear, "That isn't gonna work." to which I always respond, "Maybe, but maybe this time it will." DIfferent leader, different boys, different setting, maybe it will work. Like I said, I don't seem to have the same kinds of problems that come up over and over again on this forum when it comes to some of the inter-personal relationship problems of scouting. I may not offer up miracle solutions, but whatever it is I'm doing, seems to work for me and my boys and when all is said and done, taking care of my boys is all I ever worry about anyway.

I'll do the Devil's Advocate because I love paperwork....NOT.

Control freaks of any sort have no place in Scouting. Scouting needs team work leadership not control freaks.

One of the problems with management organizational efforts is the paperwork bureaucracy it entails. I have an ASM that deals with ALL the paperwork for the troop. I can do it, but I totally hate paperwork. I have develped templates for the boys so they can, if they wish, make use of it. Some use it, others don't. It all depends on the leader and his style of leadership. If I were selected to be PL for a patrol, the first thing I would work on is getting one of my buddies on board as patrol Scribe. The paperwork needed would focus only on patrol needs. If 3 boys accomplished an advancement, the Scribe can either write it down on a piece of paper, or go over to the Advancement ASM and work with him with getting it recorded properly. Either way, the Scribe is taking care of his boys. Learning what it takes to get the job done is something the Scribe has to figure out relative to his own leadership style. He's going to screw it up sometimes, and as time passes, he'll get better at it. If it takes a piece of paper to do that, fine, if not, that's fine too. Paperwork is necessary in my book, never fun, nothing is ever going to make it fun, but I do it because it's necessary. I do it because my boys depend on me doing it. Nothing more, nothing less.

Sure would be interesting to have the person who negatively dinged this comment provide their rationale. Unless my memory has gone bad in the past few years, it was always my recollection that OA stood for Leadership in Service to Others, and personally I don't believe it becomes necessary to have a costume or dance to be able to do that. But it does leave the door open for questions in my book. While it is true that Council and District personnel are the only ones in our council promoting service projects on a distrtict and council level, I find it somewhat "Not taking care of your OA boys" by not stepping up and picking up the tab on such efforts. Instead we have OA Wingdings, OA Conclaves, OA Elections, OA Call Outs, OA Cub Arrow of Light Ceremonies, OA Cross-over Ceremonies, but NO OA SERVICE PROJECTS. Instead the closest thing we have to any service from our OA Lodge is the OA Ordeal where a couple of the OA boys take the newbie ordeal members out to either set up summer camp in the spring or take it down in the fall. Well much to the shagrine of the membership of the council, the Council staff and DE's along with the Camp Staff have been putting out an all-call for help on even this process for the past 3 years. If this be the case why are the Lodge officers still getting their Vigil sashes? How is it that percieved as they are taking care of their boys? If I get a ding for pointing out that my OA Lodge is non-functional, then sometimes telling the truth isn't a good idea. Dump the costumes and get blue jeans. T-shirt and a pair of gloves and start asking "What can I do to help!" That is the first step in servant leadership. Others will follow OA leaders like this. Our council is still waiting. On the other hand the Indian dress and dance is a nice icing-on-the-cake touch, but eating a steady diet of frosting isn't healthy.

Dang, I'm a SM and don't have to deal with this....

Stop and think for a moment..... if the unit was a perfectly boy led, patrol method troop, there would be no real place for you..... Sitting around the campfire drinking coffee all day does get boring after awhile. Adult Association is needed. Are you going to become one of the boys and work with them as a peer rather than a adult? When I deal with my boys either I'm a boy along with them or they are adults along with me. Not much middle ground there. As soon as I slip into the adult/youth mode, I'm cooked.

Yeah, I've never been a fan of just wearing a patch gets one credit. However, I have also signed off on a ton of boys who never wore a patch but had tons of proof of their taking responsibility for jobs within the troop. If Joey was wearing the QM patch and Freddie was doing the work, In my troops, Freddie always got the advancement. All Joey got was the discussion as to why Freddie did all the work and he sat on his hands and let him. Is that how he takes care of his boys?

We run our troop in somewhat of a Pack model. The troop (pack) meets as a whole once a month. The rest of the time there is a brief opening followed by patrol (den) meetings where the focus is more on patrol member needs. The troop meeting is oriented more towards a general program which might include the D.A.R.E. officer coming in and doing a presentation to meet the annual drug and alcohol requiremnt. It might be a Red Cross Volunteer coming in and doing a CPR refresher, those items that are of interest to the whole troop. The patrol meeting is orented towards the needs of the patrol, menu planning for next camporee, advancement for members if needed, patrol outing, etc. In my old troop with multiple patrols, there wasn't an SPL, but the PL's rotated amongst themselves the troop activity for the month. Along with this there was a general troop outing and a service project as well. That, like the troop program, rotated with the patrols to research and set up. With my new troop, there is only one patrol, but the format of one biggy program (troop), one outing, one service project and the rest of the time is whatever the boys want to do for the evening.

OMG, all this talk of blackpowder makes me nostalgic for my old reenacting days. 6:00 am, heavy fog, you have difficulty seeing front of you, a field of corn stands there. The men are excited and tense. It's time to give the order to move forward and within minutes all Hell breaks loose. The temperature conversion tolds the fog and smoke close to the ground, your eyes burn and the smell of powder chokes in your throat. The 150th Anniversary of Antietam/Sharpsburg, MD has begun. Venture Crew 2 was there portraying 2nd WI Co. B This is high adventure at it's best.

That would surely offer another option for boys in the area if there are no other boy led units around. Keep it in mind, however, there's a lot more work involved with starting a unit than having 5 boys interested. One needs 5 boys dediccated to the idea, too. It's a challenging row to hoe.