Stosh

Got my first OA newsletter in 10+ years this past week. It included a 4 page printout on the OA elections, too. Must be hurting for members.

Hat courtesy has changed dramatically over the past few centuries. Schools outlaw them indoors, some frown on HOW they are worn even. I have been to summer camps where they are confiscated if worn in the dining hall, along with other uniform abuses. So with all the conflicting protocol going on in a boys' life, it's really difficult to expect them to know what's going on in various places today unless one knows which way the wind is blowing. By the way, even the military rules have changed over the years.

Scouts aren't military..... So according to your logic, it ain't so simple!

One has to be careful when eating raw eggs. One can avoid this by heating the milk to just below boil and slowly blending in the egg whites (small amounts over an extended period of time) and then the egg yokes. VERY slowly. It's the same principle as making homemade mayonaise. One ends up with pasturized eggs and no threat of eating raw eggs. One does have to allow extra time to make sure everything cools down in time for the party.

I've had a campaign hat for many years, I wear it all the time, mostly on my head. Other than that, there's no real "rules" to follow other than what might be appropriate for the moment, i.e. prayer, religious ceremony, etc. I'm not Jewish, but I do believe one is to retain wearing a hat in a synogogue? When in doubt, look and see what others are doing. It is, however, proper to wear the hat during flag ceremonies, both indoor and out, because the hat is part of the uniform. One doesn't take off parts of the uniform for the ceremony.

The boys in my troop pretty much destroy any of the books rather quickly, but the non-spiral books are easier to repair with tape when the pages fall out. They have mostly gone away from the spiral books.

One can read all they want on the marketing of the refill adapters and the refillable bottles, but the only literature that counts is the federal law that says all propane canisters of any size must be refilled, by weight (if under #200 tank) by a trained and certified technician in order for it to be transported anywhere. So, technically, yes you can refill the tank, you just can't transport it anywhere per federal law. Then again, ever wonder why campers and mobilehomes always have the propane tanks on the OUTSIDE of the unit? What does that say about all the scout troops with 2-3 #20 tanks INSIDE their troop trailers?

As a former clergyman, here's my take on the issue. First one has to decide where the flag is going to end up at the end of the procession. Then one needs to consider the architecture of the church. Once that's all been established, one can start figuring out what to do. General considerations. Older Methodist churches were designed with the focus of the speaker (altar area) in the corner rather than at a wall. That meant there could be two aisles to consider. This is good and would be easier and answer a lot of hassles about who goes first. Facing the altar, the cross procession would go down the right aisle and the flags down the left with the American flag on the right of the two flags. They would enter simultaneously and come down the aisle parallel to each other. Newer Methodist churches are the traditional altar against the wall and one aisle (extra aisles on the side, too, but not processional aisles.) Here I would have the cross enter first, one is in the Sanctuary of God's house at that point so the cross is dominant. The two flags behind the cross bearer with the American flag on the right, Christian flag on the left. Okay, we got into the church and up to the front. 1) If the flags are to remain on the floor of the Sanctuary (not up any steps up front) the American flag goes over to the right side of the congregation! and the Christian flag to the left side of the congregation. 2) If the flags are to go up the step to the speaker's level, then the American flag crosses over to the left (right of the speaker) and the Christian flag to the right side, American flag passing in front like a normal flag ceremony. 3) if the flags are to end up in the Apse area (inside the railing (if there is one) up the last step to the level of the Altar itself (Generally not a consideration in a Methodist church, but will apply in a liturgical church, i.e. Catholic, Lutheran, Episcopalian, etc.) then the flags will end up with the Christian flag on the left side (to the speaker's right and the American flag on the right.) Basically, US flag is on the congregations right if on the congregation's floor, to the speakers right if it is on the speaker's level and on the left of the altar when in the altar area behind the railing. My guess would be the Methodists focus on the pulpit not the altar and commune in the pews so they wouldn't have a railing enclosed apse area. Then all you need figure out if you go up steps the us flag is to the right of the speaker and if you do not go up steps, it goes to the right of the congregation.

You'd be bucking troop tradition here, but with the situation you describe, and the BSA tradition of the Eagle decides his own ceremony, I'd go with an individual ECOH with all the scouts and all the project helpers invited. It might stir up some discussion about how ECOH's are held and that the troop tradition might be better served with the boys making their own decisions as to how they want their ECOH to be run. Somehow I get a twinge in the back of my mind that this troop isn't really boy-led and if a boy makes an independent decision about his own ECOH it's a bad thing. I don't think so, but the other people who are not part of the decision process in the troop seem to think so. Congrats to your boy!

We're in agreement here. Yes, there's a theme... maybe that's all there is to the "plan". The PL takes that to the boys and they huddle to come up with a plan.....The "plan" is generated by the creativity, group dynamics, shared leadership of all the boys and then they devise management for the plan to be put into action. And yes, every great general will tell you that within the first couple of minutes of a battle, the battle plan gets tossed out the window. BUT a general with creative, resourceful, and determined subordinates doesn't really need a good plan, just trust that they have a general idea of how things are laid out and know how to take the leadership to step up to the changing situation and think on their feet. I like to think that everyone in the patrol is a leader. The PL goes to the PLC and the SPL announces the theme for this month is Dutch Ovens. The PL goes back to the patrol and announces the celebrity stars for this month are going to be the Grubmaster and Quartermaster and the APL will be there to help in anyway he can. The floor is now open for any fun ideas about Dutch Ovens. Now the management task of coming up with a plan of action is developed by the PATROL, WITHIN the patrol, FOR the patrol. The plan of action does take on the necessity of certain management skills, but those are worked out according to the various abilities of the patrol members. At any time the PL can call on the SPL for theme clarification or maybe the adults for some instruction on DO"s, but for me the best part of this whole process is the solutions the different patrols come up with based on the theme that's been selected. Sometimes I'm disappointed in what the boys come up with, sometimes I'm impressed.

As pointed out in the @@Eagle69 Amazon description of their adapter, the item there has a shutoff to keep the smaller tank from over-filling. I'm thinking @@eagle90 comment about gravity feeding the smaller tank can indeed over-fill it. These tanks are never completely filled and are filled by weight, not volume! Be sure to rip the label off the canister before you refill it. One would not want to have the boys reading the part where it's against Federal Law to transport refilled containers such as these. While the $25.00 fine isn't so bad the 5 years in a federal prison might not go over well with the Mrs. Did some internet research and I must have an old cylinder they say, "Never Refill This Cylinder. Refilling may cause explosion. Federal law forbids transportation if refilled – penalty up to $500,000 and 5 years imprisonment (49 U.S.C. 5124)" In any case, refilling cylinders requires a trained and certified (renewed every 3 years) person. Anything under #200 is filled by weight, not volume. Like running 5 mph over the speed limit, your mileage may vary.

Now that didn't make one bit of sense to me, totally convoluted and confusing. So it's reasonable to say then, Yes, that is exactly how it's supposed to go.

@@blw2 I spent one whole week at summer camp as a CampMaster and never carried any light after dark. But like you said, one dork shining his search beacon in your eyes blinds you for a long time afterwards. Light pollution is just as big an issue as any other pollution. Over the years, however, as my night vision declines with age, I do carry a small pocket pen flashlight as a back up.

@@blw2 careful with your thinking here or you just may have figured out what boy led, patrol method really means. I like the way you think, the boys come first, after all, it's their program.

Okay, I'm on board with the management thingy going on here and I understand there are certain adult expectation for learning these management skills. I've never really worked that hard at developing a program to promote that however. You say, "And his patrol members likely are unaware that the meeting plan is going undone." If the boys are getting something out of the program, they are excited about being there, get to do THEIR own thingy, are unaware of the "adult driven management promotion" isn't being followed, where's the foul? "We need to obviously do some remedial training to remind the PL and the patrol that they have an obligation to complete the plan." Why? If this isn't something that's important to the way the boys want to run their patrol, why go to all the effort to impose it on them? For me this just isn't a hill I want to die on. It would seem to me that a successful patrol is being measured more on accomplishing the "plan" rather than having fun learning something. I guess I just see my PL's more in a leadership type of role rather than a management type role. My expectations for them focus on them developing the skills and insights into the welfare of their boys rather than using those boys as pawns to accomplish a task as driven from "above." I guess I don't want to hassle with the push back from the boys when they aren't allowed to do what they want rather than what the "plan" states. I tend to get the same results, however, but will less hassle. This month's theme is Dutch Ovens..... (or any other theme one wishes to pick out of the air.) Yes, even the adults can recommend a theme for the month.... as long as it's just a recommendation. Okay, TG and PL of the NSP knowing the theme suggest DO's into the menu planning requirements the newbies are working on. Maybe instead of Smores, it is suggested by the PL that the Grubmaster do a cobbler. So one meeting is dedicated to making and eating a patrol cobbler. Obviously not much planning needed beyond looking into how to make a cobbler which I'm sure all the boys would like to eventually know anyway. Requirement accomplished. Boys had a good time. The only plan was to have fun and get a requirement done. Mission accomplished. The mid-aged boys try out some variations on the traditional breakfast egg bake Mountain Man Breakfast. What does it taste like with bacon? how about Spam? Sausage? Are onions necessary? Jalapeno peppers instead of green peppers? etc. Heck, maybe they will come up with something no adult would ever think good that they totally love. I've been surprised before. No plan, mission accomplished. On the other hand the older boy patrol is looking at the DO theme and deciding how to push the limits on what can be done in a DO. They come up with doing blueberry muffins, baking a cheese cake, maybe a pork tenderloin roast or even the traditional pot roast. One of the boys know about how they used to do the dig a hole, bury the DO method and they try that out. No plan, mission accomplished. Other than setting a theme and trusting the boys to use it for having a good time, what management plan is really needed? I love working on a leadership level with the boys rather than the management level. I find that if the boys "manage" to have fun, It's a check mark on the WIN side of the ledger. And the last time I checked, I've never really had to remind the boys over and over again to have fun. Oh, and by the way, I need to add that as the theme/leadership emphasis is being promoted, the management skills are inherently being developed along the way behind the scenes. How much planning goes into teaching the new boys about getting a DO from the QM, assigning and shopping for cobbler ingredients, collecting up $$ to pay for the food, researching the recipe, lesson on cleaning the DO, etc. Even the older boys would have to roll up their sleeves and research how to do the dig the hold method of DO cooking. Someone has to apply management along the way to accomplish the task, but the plan of who does what when is dictated from the boys, not from "above". And really, it doesn't need to be written down even.

That happens on occasion in my troop as well and the PL gets replaced rather quickly. We don't do 6 month election cycles. If the boy slacks off and the patrol members are fed up with it, they have the option to fix it at any time. The PL's working on advancement know this and tend to do a better job of staying on top of things than the PL's who like their job and want to keep it who tend to do a better job than those PL's who have nothing to gain or are on the verge of burning out anyway. It's a system we have used for many years and tends to allow the cream to rise to the top and the slag skimmed off. Knowing this from the start, the boys do tend to pay attention better to their POR responsibilities.

I've got nothing but the duel fuel items. I have a cheap old white gas Colman stove so I can use white gas for my cooking stove. That allows me to use same fuel for my lanterns Then I have a cheap adapter to turn my white gas Colman stove into propane as well as a backup. That of course can hook up to both small canister as well as #20 tanks. My backpacking stove is duel fuel but it's between regular gasoline and white gas. I also have backup electric lighting as well. I do find that batteries and propane canisters quite a waste as you have mentioned, but my little white gas bottles I can reuse all the time and a gallon of white gas goes a long way. My main source of energy for camping has always been white gas. Propane and batteries are the backup. Being conservation minded, my white gas bottles are refill able by me and the white gas gallon container from the store can be recycled. On outings I carry a small pen light flashlight. and cook most of my meals on charcoal, wood or white gas. I do carry a couple of canisters of propane when I want to cook something quickly and don't want to play with the white gas. If the white gas runs out in the middle of cooking dinner. I just pull the tank and hot generator out and instead of trying to fill that and repump the pressure, I just toss on the propane tank and play with the white gas tank after it's cooled down. My duel fuel lanterns do burn the cheaper unleaded gasoline, but one also has to put up with the smell of a gas station, too. I am always looking for the cheap, reusable/recyclable options when making my choices. And my lantern of choice that I use alot is a candle lantern. Not much light but plenty for what I need.

Instead of just one person doing this, what are the PL's and their patrol Scribes along with the Troop Scribe doing to earn their POR's? We hear all the time about the older boys (even the younger ones) not fulfilling the POR's properly and then when opportunities like this come up, we don't involve them appropriately. I as SM spend 95% of my time figuring out opportunities for the boys to lead, manage and be involved constructively in the troop and patrols, and in this case, more than just another overwhelming job for the SPL. I've gotten along many years without an official SPL, but I can't do without my PL's and although BSA doesn't give due credit, my APL's. They do a ton of the heavy lifting, but troop and patrol Scribes, QM's etc. also do a ton of work. Not many of my boys are standing around with their hands in their pockets watching one or two others burn out .

Oh, that's rich! I always tell the boys we leave when the camp is clean. I can do that because I have the car keys. Then they police it and I follow along behind them. If I find anything I tell them I guess I'll have to stay and go over it inch by inch by myself so that it gets cleaned. Once we cleaned a city park we camped in and it was of course full of cigarette butts. None of the boys wanted to pick them up. Well I went back and for almost an hour picked up butts (it would have been 5 minutes if everyone pitched in) while they sat around making noises like they had sprung an air leak. Even the other adults refused to help out, but they didn't make any noises. When I got all done I washed my hands in front of the boys and then finished them up with hand sanitizer and then announced it was time to go. No one got yelled at, no one got punished, but we NEVER played that game ever again. As a matter of fact one police line through the camp seemed to always do it and in record time. I'm sure that story got passed down as new boys came into the troop, but I never heard it.

My one ASM kept track of what was reported to him for advancement by the PL's. He was nothing more than a data entry person. The PL's had a TroopMaster printout of what his boys needed for advancement and would report back to the ASM when the boys accomplished a requirement. If the paper the PL had got mucked up with things being crossed off or a bit confusing, he would simply ask the ASM for an updated report and keep on going. My SMC's were my opportunity to sit down with the advancing scout and make sure everything looked Kosher for his BOR. I never had a boy question his PL about his advancement records and nothing ever came up in the SMC that would raise any eyebrows. A PL having to keep track of 6-7 boys didn't seem to be a daunting responsibility for even the weakest of PL's. I and my ASM worked out the details at a troop level for council reporting and the PL's and APL's did the same on a vastly smaller scale for the patrols for troop reporting. It always seemed to run smoothly for us. Obviously the heaviest responsibility for advancement would always fall on the shoulders of the NSP PL, but along with his APL, he also had the older TG to help him get squared away. That is three people keeping an eye on the progress of the new boys (and none of them over the age of 18). It encourages the older boys to do more than just teach scoutcraft skills to the younger boys. They also teach how to be a leader and run a patrol all at the same time.

@blw2 Exactly! This is precisely what I do and with everyone doing what they want to do, attendance is up, involvement is up, disciple problems are virtually non-existent.... and in spite of the chaos, the boys advance, they get to activities, they work well at events and for the most part even with 25-30 boys in the troop, the only time more than 2 adults were necessary was when the activity required drives because we couldn't fit everyone into 2 vehicles. @Krampus Question for you..... from what blw2 said, what are the 6 things going on that the adults have to manage? If done according to what blw2 is saying there isn't anything for adults to manage. "In any event, the boys are doing what they want because they are responsible for bringing the ideas to the PL who brings them to the PLC." What's the PLC got to do with anything other than the over-lap coordination issues that blw2 mentions? The boys are doing what they want because they are programming their own activities regardless of what the PLC or adults think. The patrol could put out a little one page "newsletter" for the PLC and adults to keep them in the loop as a courtesy, but other than helping the patrol with their activities, of what value are they to the fired up patrol?

Considering Columbus sailed under a Spanish flag, it would prove to be interesting. With overwhelming evidence that Columbus was a Johnny-come-lately, they are now finding that the Welsh got here earlier than Columbus and the Irish (Celts) were even earlier than the whole bunch. After all, the oldest known Clovis point was not found on the west coast, but on the East Coast, our history books are getting obsolete about as fast as our geography books.

It's called the patrol method where the PL takes care of his boys on this issue. He shouldn't be worrying about more than 6-7 boys and their advancement and looking for troop opportunities for his patrol to get involved with that are addressing those advancement issues. I'm sure if one adult is doing all this work, it would be a headache. But when did it become a job for the adult? It's a job I wouldn't want to be doing and in fact shouldn't be doing either. I'm sure that if the job is too big for the PL to handle alone, he has his APL there to help and the patrol Scribe could get involved along with the ActivityMaster.... Now half the patrol is working on the issue.

I don't see why there's going to be any problem with mixed requirements even for the new boys. Joey needs 1 hour of service hours, Freddie needs two. After a 1 hour service project, Joey's done and Freddie is not. After another hour everyone's happy. Mark the books, sign off and date. Done No one is on the needing service hours list. Better yet, do an 8 hour roadside cleanup with the troop and get everyone at every rank all done at the same time. Joey only needed 1 hour and left at noon. So what. One year a boy found a $20 bill. Since then attendance has been great and they stay the whole time. As a matter of fact they now do the clean up a couple of times a year. Thinking back over what I just wrote, it just dawned on me I could have salted the ditch with a $20 my first year and things would have gone along a lot better right from the beginning.

My PL's phone their members before each meeting and when he shows up, knows who's going to be there and who's not. It really cuts down on the sluffing off when there's a direct contact. It's one of those "Take care of your boys" leadership opportunities for the boys. It also cuts down on the "I forgot to bring...." problem too.