Stosh

If OA is a Boy Scout honor society, how is it that anyone would think it something open to Venturing in the first place? They are two entirely different programs unless a scout is registered in both programs. Even then the double registration is valid only in Boy Scouts because no elections have ever been done in the Venturing program for OA. If a scout registers in both programs and basically does not follow through with a commitment to both, it would jeopardize their ability to get into OA. It would be no different for a scout to be a Boy Scout SPL working on rank and then never showing up for any of the Boy Scout meetings or activities. I make it clear in my troops that if a scout is going to register in two different programs, they had better give full support to both and the blending of the two isn't acceptable unless stated by BSA policy. If the rank requirement says attend 10 scout activities in the Boy Scout Handbook, Venturing activities don't count towards those 10. If the OA requirement is XX number of nights camping as a scout, Venturing camping doesn't count. The Webelos requirements make it very clear that for AOL, a Webelos scout must attend a SCOUT activity. That's two different programs, but it is spelled out clearly in BSA material this is the way it is to happen. After all, why wouldn't Cub Scouts, if they happen to meet the criteria be eligible to join OA? To me it's the same. OA is not, nor ever was a part of the Venturing program. The only reason there are adult females in the OA is because they came in through the Boy Scout program having made contributions to that program.

One of the problems I have been facing the past few years is summer camps have gotten away from Blue Cards and instead issue a computer printout of the MB records "signed" by the camp director. Generally these records are woefully inaccurate. Some of my boys attended all five days of the MB and got NOTHING checked off INCLUDING attendance in the class. The boy's attendance and some of the accomplishments were collaborated by boys in the unit that did get credit. For all I know some boy who DIDN'T show up for the MB got full credit in the mix-up. Communicating with the camp afterwards was a waste of time. They say they trust their counselors and they stand behind the records as is. I started the process of sending the boys off to their MB classes, but the counselors would not acknowledge them and instead relied on the camp's record keeping system. These are the kinds of issues that are coming down the road as more and more camps start different processes than the BSA authorized records of Blue Cards. As more technology creeps into the world, these are the kinds of things that are going to make getting Eagle a greater challenge at no fault of the boys.

I don't know if it will get any traction in your troop, but BSA is traditionally boy-led. Maybe it's time to follow BSA policy and this is a simple way to start it out. When my boys were disenchanted with our local council, I simply stated, pick out any camp in the United States you would like to go to. They did an internet search of the internet and came up with Freeland Leslie. At the time I didn't even know it existed. They wanted to go there and we went there, it was only an hour and a half drive away. It was an easy choice for me as SM, because the boys took ownership of the process from registering to MB selection. We packed up and headed out. The #1 issue I skirted around was that if it was NOT something the boys enjoyed, it wasn't my fault, I didn't pick the camp. Well, it turned out that they loved it and went back every year during my tenure with the unit. I did suggest it to my new troop and they, too, make it their new "tradition". I don't have a problem with the process, because there never was, nor will there ever be any blow-back on the quality of their experience because no adult is involved in the process. Maybe it's not a win-win in the long run, but I don't care as long as it's a win for the adults. "You don't like what happened in summer camp last summer? Well, then pick a different camp anywhere in the United States." I'm not the one that's going to get caught holding the ball on a bad decision and that's all that counts.

I did not come up with the Prancy title for this gal. The situation was brought up to me by my female ASM who used this term to describe the girl's actions in front of the boys. She asked me my advice on how to approach a member of a different unit. Does she go to the girl's leaders or just handle the situation. I suggested she address the issue directly with the girl and I would back her up. We concurred that it should be a female scouter confronting the girl. The girl went back to her camp and came back dressed appropriately and sat quietly in the crowd with her unit. Nothing more was said about it. I did make the comment to the Crew leaders about how they all looked good in their Venturing uniforms before they departed home. I was looking at the girl at the time. It was a delicate situation that turned out well. I credit it to an understanding ASM and 45+ years working with co-ed youth groups. The only time I would have done differently if there were no female leaders around and I was the Pastor of a church youth group. Even then I would have had adult female youth workers with me, AND the girls in that environment would never have been dong what this girl was doing in the first place.

As I posted in my original comment about the gal's choice of wardrobe, one will notice it was my FEMALE ASM who handled the situation and that was after we had discussed it. We both agreed it would be better if SHE handled it. Yes, one's sex has a direct affect on each and every situation in a co-ed group. It has nothing to do with bullying or condescending comments Prancy Susie goes home and says: "MRS. Smith berated me about my clothing in front of everyone at camp." Mom will probably ask if what she was wearing and how she was wearing it was appropriate. On the other hand she says, "MR. Stosh berated me about my clothing in front of everyone at camp." Now we're talking at least a nasty phone call to the SE. I wouldn't touch that situation with a 10' pole. Even females can end a scouter's career, probably faster and more effectively than a male. Yes, women are just as chauvinistic as men. The term chauvinistic isn't reserved just for men. Sorry, but the door swings both ways.

One may have an all girls troop along with an all boys troop, same for patrols, packs, dens etc. etc. and great elaborate lengths will be gyrated at charter/recharter time to accommodate all this. But when it comes to any district or council or out-of-council events, it's a moot point. Kinda like the old smoking section of the bar or restaurant, or better yet, the peeing section of the pool. It just doesn't work well when logic is applied.

I don't sew the plastic backing, I snag the embroidered edge and pull it back under the plastic backing. No stitches show if done right.

It's not blame, it's just that Will knows how to do everything!!!

For all those scouters out there, there's a whole new learning curve out there not yet tapped by National BSA. This does not surprise me one bit! The authorities will ALWAYS!!! take the side of the youth. It is as if KIDS CAN"T LIE at this age. YPT two adults AT ALL TIMES whe dealing with youth in a difficult situation. YPT is NOT for the youth's protection as I have said multiple times, it is for the SCOUTER's protection!! Ever get called out of your place of work to "discuss outside" something with the local police department? It's no fun. Fortunately I had multiple witnesses or I would have been sunk. Instead the kid was praised for being courageous enough to speak up. No, the kid should have been arrested for telling a lie that could have ruined someone's life. I checked with a lawyer on that and he said "The authorities will ALWAYS!!! take the side of the youth. Including judges." He told me I was lucky and to forget about it. Luck only lasts so long. I've gotten 45+ years out of the deal, but now I know what to expect from these kids. BSA might have "liability insurance" for such situations, but I personally also carry a $1,000,000 umbrella policy as well. This is the new norm in Scouting. Pandora's box is open...

OA will not be known also as Order of the Amazons.

Last summer.... Scout/Venturing activity at council camp.... Venturing girl wearing short-shorts and t-shirt with knot in bottom... Spent her time "prancing" (not my description) in front of the boys.... Kept it up until my female ASM confronted her and told her to go get dressed and come back when she's ready to behave. It happens, and it will happen again. This is just the beginning. With 45+ year working with co-ed groups, I can assure everyone this is only the beginning.

When one can't debate the topic, attack the other person. It seems to be the new norm in our culture. Kinda sad.

One would also wonder if personal attacks are holding up the integrity of Scout Spirit.

It is my recommendation to my Life Scouts to get a copy of their "official" status with National and then reconcile it before their EBOR. I don't know if it was just good record keeping on the part of the Troop or what, but I never had a boy not reconcile his achievements well in advance of his EBOR. The Eagle committee reviewed the information, but the EBOR never asked for any of that "prove to me you've earned the Eagle, business." Either they earned it or not.... well before they got to the EBOR.

Okay, just a clarification here..... We have helicopter parents..... We have helicopter committee members..... Are we now faced with helicopter EBOR members?

What's the insurance ramifications for "family". Would a non-custodial "step-dad" be covered? How will he fit into YPT? He is not a parent nor legal guardian and not registered as a scouter. Could get interesting.

Only the parents and court designated legal guardians or anyone with blood relations out to the 4th and 5th generation? or how about step-parents? and the list goes on and on. Going to make YPT a nightmare.

Sorry for the confusion.... Public access is not automatic if the land surrounding the lake is a single owner. Multiple owners is a whole different ball game. Then public access completely around the lake is required, thus the trail is public access and the lake is controlled by the DNR, not a single owner.

If one owns the land all the way around a lake or pond in Wisconsin, one does not need to have public access to it. Rivers are an exception, Even if one owns land on both sides of the river, they cannot restrict anyone from traveling across the land as long as they stay afloat. In Iowa if the DNR stocks a farm pond for fishing on someone's property, they have to close it off for so many years and then make public access to it for fishing. One also has to remember that even if the public has access to a lake, does not mean it has access to any private docks or shoreline around the lake, They can get to the lake, launch a watercraft for recreation and return to the public "landing". If there is a dock 10' away on private property, that is not part of the landing, nor is it open to public access.

Welcome to the forum. Your experiences are just as valuable on this forum as ours.

Generally speaking, rigging a sail in the BWCA is illegal.

I'm thinking the one patrol troops tend to be either failing troops or new troops. Both exhibit a different dynamic. Failing troops might have an older scout that could help with instruction of the younger boys, but new troops are at a distinct disadvantage. With my new troop I just used the GBB patrol training, gave them the literature (which they basically ignored) and let them struggle through the learning curve, giving support when asked. It's basically like running a NSP with no TG or other POR support. They're getting there. I spend my time training the adults to follow the lead of the PL and it seems to be working well. The PL seems to not favor one adult over the other because we will all give the same support. A change in adult leadership wouldn't have an affect on the operation of the patrol. Getting a newbie adult would only have an affect on the adults who would need to get them up to speed as quickly as possible on the patrol method.

I thought this was the Issues & Politics section. My mistake.

In a one patrol troop, the SPL's function is very limited in a supportive role, unless that SPL takes on more than just SPL. If he functions as QM, TG, etc, and various other hats in that small situation, I can see a bit more opportunity for the SPL. But as a further caveat to that situation, would he then be taking away opportunities from the various patrol members (under GBB format) of holding those positions within the patrol. I could conceivably see a figurehead SPL that functions as a generalist with many hats, helping the PL, the APL, the patrol QM, the patrol Scribe, etc. develop their skills through the SPL's experience and tutelage. Measuring the functionality of the SPL would be determined by the PL who recognizes the "outside" input of the SPL helping out the various instruction to the patrol members. Maybe in this case the POR Instructor would be a bit more appropriate and would encompass many facets of support from the older scout. Just a thought.