Stosh

My kid brother (law enforcement officer) plays by the rules. He and his buddy were going to do some bear hunting in Northern MN. 6 weeks prior to the season, they faithfully baited a spot to hunt. They hauled up some really good garbage. Well, one of the weeks near to opening day, his buddy couldn't make it up there so he went by himself. When he pulled into the farmer's drive and started hauling out garbage, the farmer's wife came out and asked him where his buddy was and he said he couldn't make it up that week. She went back into the house got her hat and coat and buckshot loaded shotgun and said she'd go with him. She said only and idiot would go out there unarmed. Up until then the only gun the two of them carried was my brothers .38 service revolver, no where near enough firepower for a bear. He learned his lesson and was lucky. I have been camping for over 60 years with the early years with my family. I didn't realize it until my brother told my dad this story that the camper we used always had a loaded 12 gauge under the mattress any time we went camping. I do remember going hunting when camping, Dad told me about the guns during the civil unrest of the '60's, but I didn't realize the guns were there all the time.

Green Bar Bill said it best. TRAIN 'EM, TRUST 'EM, LET THEM LEAD. I have no problem with training them, but most interfering adults feel that's an ongoing process and never get to step two. It also plays into the abuse of adult management being promoted by BSA today now that they have totally dumped GBB from the pages of BSA history.

As far as injury to scouts are concerned. The summer I was at Philmont there were three scouts ended up in the hospital due to bear attacks. I know of one last summer at Philmont and a scout was killed at one of the council camps in my state a few years back. How much of this could have been averted? Even if it was just one would it have been worth it. Scouts know they are going into hazardous areas, why are they not prepared? After further research, I stand corrected, there were 4 bear attacks in one month that summer at Philmont (2000).

Did some research on the subject. A lot of of political garbage to dig through but there were a couple of good points made. 1) Would BSA be liable under present policy if an armed leader could have made a difference in a situation involving serious injury to or death of one of his scouts? 2) Campgrounds are becoming more dangerous. Robberies, theft are more prevalent due to soft targets and unsecured isolated locations. And as a result, more campers are armed than ever before. California, for example, has shown a rather significant number of armed incidents in campgrounds in recent years. Rangers have always been law enforcement, but now they are armed and function more like police rather than camp directors. 3) Isolated campgrounds are becoming more popular for criminal habitation due to it's remoteness. 4) Scouts tend to be highly visible to the public in these situations, i.e. uniforms, flags, etc. and they are also known to be unarmed soft targets. 5) BSA G2SS policy for litigation purposes is in conflict with the Scout Oath and Motto. I don't know how many of them I agree with or know much about, but they do bring up some points to ponder.

Every adult leader has their own "style" as to how to deal with youth. My "style" probably doesn't work for everyone as well as it does for me. Also my style may not fit the culture that others find themselves in. However, it works for me, it causes less concern from what I'm hearing others express and so I'll just keep on plugging along with what I got. I also draw from a wider base of youth, not just scouts. Technically I do set somewhat of a boundary. As mentioned in another thread, I let every scout coming into my troop know that they will be treated as an adult until they prove differently. As I mentioned above, VERY few youth have ever pressed that issue over the years and for the most part they have been the youth that were NOT in the scout program that did. I've never had to send a boy home from an event, I've never had to have a parent called in to babysit him if he is going to stay, etc. Yet I hear all these things from other scouters. I have run into some tense situations, i.e. knife fights between scouts, vandalism, theft, discipline problems, etc. but they are not my boys. Is there a magical formula or some super power I possess. I don't think so, I just expect them to act like adults and they do. I trust them and they trust me. I don't use "Sign's up" in my troop. I respect my boys when they are talking and they respect me when I'm talking. BUT once they got out of hand and I held "Sign's up!" I overheard one of my older boys telling the new Webelos boys NEVER to push it, you never want to see Mr. Stosh hold up "Sign's Up!" I definitely did not say anything nor were they ever punished, I just held up my hand. The magic was, I did not react like other adults they have known and they didn't know what to make of it. The strange thing about it, whenever an adult goes to the front of the room to address the boys, the room drops to dead silence without having to do "Sign's Up!". If that's manipulating the group as an adult leader, I'm guilty. If it's teaching the boys to be respectful, then I'm guilty of that too. TRAIN 'EM, then TRUST 'EM.... The training stuff is nothing more than what being an adult is all about. Son to parent: "When are you going to start treating me like an adult!!!!" Parent: "When you start acting like one!" Well, I train my boys to act like one (Rule #2 - Look and Act like a Scout) . A lot of scouters never get the chance to start a new unit from scratch and have no older boys to help with the heavy lifting. In my situation, I have to expect a higher level than normal maturity from my Webelos cross over boys, they're all I got to work with. By the time they get to FC, they'll have the maturity and experience of a 16 year old and they'll only be 13 years old. This is how my 13 year old ADHD scout pulled off the troop's most successful popcorn sale ever. This is how my scouts receive unsolicited applications to be on camp staff after observing them working with the boys in the troop. There's nothing special about what I do, I just treat them like adults and they respond in kind. It's a lot easier running a troop of <18 year old adults than a bunch of boys who's maturity and leadership training is postponed until after they have had 2-3 years of wandering in Scout wilderness before the adults let them try their hand at leading. Year one of my new troop had a Scout ranked scout do the SPL work at summer camp. The next year another Scout rank scout was SPL at camp. This summer my SPL will be Tenderfoot or maybe SC if he works on his advancement. Until they prove to me they are not adults, I have no choice but to trust them. None of them have ever been in a hurry to prove to me they aren't. Adult association? - These boys are as much my friends as those >18 I know. There's nothing magical about 18.

Well I haven't heard of any yet. Haven't listened to the news today. But I have broken up serious knife fights at summer camp in the past. I'm sure none of them made a big enough impact on the national level, but it surely got a lot of people riled up on the council level. I did hear about the Eagle scout that had a 1" knife in his survival kit in the trunk of his car on school property and was expelled from school for 12 days. The world has changed. In high school I was on the rifle team and had my gun stored in my locker on the days it was needed. So look into your crystal ball and tell me it isn't going to be a statistic some day. When it does I dearly hope some scouter is breaking the rules and stops it before it turns into something that'll make national news.

A lot has changed in the past 3 years..... might be a good idea to revisit the issue. It might be a good idea to maybe find some statistics on how many people carried weapons in 2013 and how many carry today. Keep it in mind that Scouter who posses a knife with a blade longer than 2 1/2" can be arrested if it is concealed in my state. So if one is going to carry a hunting knife, either wear it open carry or take it off and put it in your trunk before driving your car. If it's in the passenger area in the open and you're not carrying it, you will be arrested. And of course make sure when you put your picnic basket in the car it's in the trunk. A dinner knife is still by definition a knife and is limited to the 2 1/2" limit. These are just the laws pertaining to knives. It gets ridiculous when we start talking guns.

And why can't that all be done by the boys? If they are trained correctly in the first place and they only seek advice on their own accord, and to offer suggestions that are non-binding and non-voted on by them there should be very little if no influence from the adults. As we all know, adults have the power to mentor, guide and direct youth. This is why we need YPT. Adults are also under the impression that it's a lot easier to do it yourself than to wait patiently for some kid to figure it out on his own. After all the simple solution is glaringly obvious to everyone but the kid. Parents mentor, guide and direct, but they run the show as the true leaders. Teachers mentor, guide and direct, but they run the show as the true leaders. Pastors mentor, guide and direct, but they run the show as the true leaders. Only the BSA promotes something different where they make claim to young boys that they will be in the leadership of the program and then when they get in there, they find out that in reality it is no different than any other adult-led program for youth. Might as well stick with sports, band, church youth and other programs that allow electronic games and cell phones. At least with these other programs they aren't being misled with empty promises.

If a scout is earning money, he honestly shows up at the door and says, "I'm earning money to go to summer camp, may I shovel your walk for $15?" He earns his money and the money goes into his pocket. Everything is upfront and honest and he reports it on his tax return or his parents do. On the other hand the troop using the non-profit status of their CO says they are raising money for summer camp, yet the money collected doesn't go to the troop, it's actually the CO's money because the troop is not a non-profit organization in and of itself, but instead of the money going to the CO it is placed in a reserved only for the scout account on the books. The money was requested as part of a charity drive, so the donor think they have contributed to a non-profit, but the money in reality ended up in an earned account for a single boy, not the non-profit. Just way too many hidden and clandestine operations going on here that don't settle well with me in the honesty part of my moral code of ethics. I was asked to keep financial records for me first troop, I refused. As SM of my second troop, they did this practice, but I made it very clear I as SM was to have no part in any and all such activities including the actual fund raising activity. It was 100% the work of the CC and Committee. In my current troop we have no ISA's because I set it up that way and we are doing just fine without them. I have absolutely no problem with the boy going out and earning money to support his Scouting addiction. That is the way I did it. Whenever I participated in a Scouting fund raiser as a youth, I never expected to see a penny of that money taken in and I paid my own way out of my own earnings when I needed to. I was 12 years old the first time I earned enough money to file a tax return. My mother taught me now to do it and I've done it ever since, until I got married to my 2nd wife. She's a tax accountant which is why I married her in the first place.

We can't because I for one think that mentoring, guiding and coaching are fantastic techniques FOR THE BOYS TO USE in their work with other scouts. They are all great leadership techniques FOR THE BOYS TO USE rather than some of the more directing, delegating and threatening management techniques one has as their disposal. One also has to remember as an adult, every time an adult uses these techniques, they are taking away from another boy leader their opportunity to lead the troop and instead reinforces the notion that the adults are the real leaders, not the boys. It is not a stretch to see manipulative mentoring adults getting the boys to run the show according to the goals (and/or "vision") of the adults and announcing proudly that their troop is boy-run. Which sounds remarkably like but is only a small part of boy led. As UC I always look at the dynamics of what's happening, not just being satisfied with the words being used. Sadly even in professional sports, the coach still calls the plays for professional football. So to use coaching as an example of teaching leadership doesn't carry any weight with me.

Teach that adulthood in Scouting begins at age 11. In many cultures around the world that is true. Only in America does childhood extend into the 30's and 40's. Every youth that has come into any youth program I have been involved with has gotten the benefit of the doubt when I clearly state up-front, "Mr. LastName, you will be treated like an adult by me until you prove otherwise." It is remarkable how that makes the difference when young people hear that. A vast majority will hold you to it and once proven to them you mean it, the relationship will take a positive change almost overnight. It might not happen overnight, but given time to build trust, it will happen.

As defined by some, an emphatic YES. TAHAWK jumped in with a more complete explanation. So I'll say yes again. It says, LISTEN, ENCOURAGE, and TAKE AN INTEREST, never does it say mentor, direct or guide. Those are leadership concepts reserved for the youth. I'm thinking the boys are supposed to be doing the mentoring, directing and guiding as part of their leadership development.

Association with Adults Boys learn a great deal by watching how adults conduct themselves. Scout leaders can be positive role models for the members of their troops. In many cases a Scoutmaster who is willing to listen to boys, encourage them, and take a sincere interest in them can make a profound difference in their lives. (http://www.nesa.org/methods.html) ADULT ASSOCIATION Boys learn from the example set by their adult leaders. An association with adults of high character is encouraged at this stage of a young man’s development. (http://www.scouting.org/HispanicInitiatives/Resources/boyscout.aspx) Okay, these are the top two "official" results of the Google search one from NESA.ORG and the other SCOUTING.ORG. From my reading of both, I can't seem to get my head wrapped around the idea that association with adults has anything to do with the adults able to mentor, direct, guide or otherwise interfere with the other methods of scouting, such as the Patrol Method. Can anyone give me indication where this concept of adult control, adult mandates, adult directives, etc. comes from? I find such things in direct opposition and conflict with the Boy-Led emphasis relative to the Patrol Method of scouting. From the NESA quote, if the SM listens, encourages and takes an interest, how does this relate to SM as the top-dog leader, grand pooh-bah of the troop? From some of the examples of adult character I have seen demonstrated around the scouting world, I can see why youth leadership has tanked over the years. Your thoughts?

I council has resorted to this. Last year one week of camp was a church group coming in and doing their thing. It took many volunteers many hours afterwards to clean up and make repairs to get the camp back in order. Plan accordingly and make sure the visiting group who has no ownership in the process pays enough in deposit to cover the cost of repairs.

I find that neighborhood visibility is always a good sell. Popcorn sales isn't as much an activity as much as it is an opportunity for the neighborhood to see uniforms they haven't seen for a long time. Neighborhood clean up isn't as much a service project in as much as it is an opportunity for the neighborhood to see uniforms going up and down the street picking up littler. Salvation Army bell ringing in uniform at the neighborhood grocery store. A lot of units don't realize that for the most part the potential scouts out there don't know there's a scout unit within 2-3 blocks of their home. I found out that one of the Webelos boys visiting this past weekend goes to school 4 miles from the CO meeting place, but lives within a block. He didn't know there was a Boy Scout troop there.

Our council camp has 8 units signed up for camp at this point.

Each thing mentioned are the trip points of the top-down approach to leadership. It used to work fairly well for management, but even then those dynamics have changed in recent years. As far as leadership is concerned, they have never worked well.

Officially a Boy Scout is not required to have a uniform. It's nice if he does. Okay he has one, it has the council strip, the troop number and his rank on it. Nothing else is needed. Any bling beyond owning a uniform is officially optional for the boy. Any BOR that makes a stink about a uniform or uniform piece needs to be retrained in their role. A boy that loses his necker, slide, belt, sock, sash, hat, or whatever can, if he wishes replace it. It is not necessary. I would recommend that if he loses one pant leg from his zip-off's he "lose" the other one as well. The uniform is nice, it is not required.

We don't either. Never could figure out why or how a troop could justify their usage other than maybe selfish greed.

GBB knew his stuff, it still works 50 years later!

If one is to teach the boys how the "world works", I have adopted in the back of my mind the theoretical structure the BSA uses itself. We all know the structure of the BSA in reality. National President -> National Office -> Regional Office -> Council Office -> District Staff - Units. If this structure is designed to provide the customer what it is the BSA is selling, it's adequate at best but it does seem to take a while to really get into it's downward death spiral. If the Unit on the bottom wishes to adopt this archaic structure, why not look at the parallel structure of the Council. Council -> District -> Troop SM -> SPL(PLC) -> PL(Patrol) That would make patrols the customer contact and SPL(PLC) the district support personnel and the SM the Council SE. We all know how well that whole thing is working, but in reality if torqued to work on a practical level and not just theoretical, the whole concept of the patrol being answerable to the customer instead of the SM things might work out better. Personally I think the only reason the downward death spiral of the program has been slowed is because there are units still out there that take their commitment to the customer seriously and work hard at it. Every time BSA loses a unit it loses a touch with the market out there. Once they are "out of touch" completely, they will simply shut the doors just like any other business, profit or not profit, out there. It happens ever day. And if one is under the notion that was taught back in my college years that GM was too big to fail as a company, well, we all know how well that turned out.

@@qwazse 's idea of exit interviews is something we as a UC Corps are going to focus on to help with retention in our district. As one of the UC's of the district, I'm going to use it to focus on why boys are leaving Cub Scouts and going back to try and draw them into Boy Scouts if their reasons for quitting Cubs is legitimate. Never had fun, DL wasn't organized, didn't go anywhere, bored, etc. We might be able to resurrect them if the Boy Scout program is a good one in their area. If they've moved, as UC I can get another unit nearby to make a contact.

That sometimes varies from pack to pack. When I was doing my WB ticket back in the 1990's, I went back to transition over Webelos boys to Boy Scouts. They didn't have any WEB II boys so I had to take on the WEB I boys. No big deal I had 2 years to finish my ticket. We went from a twice a month meeting to weekly meetings, knocked out the awards and pins, did a lot of weekend outing activities, pretty much just had a fun time. Well they crossed into Webelos from Bears at Blue-Gold in March, a bit early but that's how the pack did it. Well, we did NOT shut down the den for the summer but plowed right on through having a good time and enjoying the nice weather of summer time. By the end of Web I, the boys had in fact done so much they had earned their AOL at the end of the Web I year and had another whole year to go! So we went back and picked up a few more pins, and worked on their Tenderfoot requirements for Boy Scouts. We planned a big outing for the summer. Canoed out to a deserted island, did the latrine dig thing, set up tents, went fishing, swam, did their own cooking, etc. Basically just had a blast of an outing. I had asked a couple of Boy Scouts from my troop to help out for the weekend and they asked why they couldn't have outings like that in Boy Scouts. The troop I was with at that time was major adult-led and fun outings planned by the boys didn't happen. Needless to say the boys wore their AOL patch for 6-8 months before crossing over into Boy Scouts when they turned 10 1/2. The adult-led SM complained to me the whole time these boys would be bored when they got into Boy Scouts because they had already "been there, done that." But he did allow the boys when they crossed over to immediately receive their Scout rank AND their Tenderfoot rank which was allowed at that time. The SM's fears of the boys being bored never materialized and all the boys from that den did earn their Eagles. The lesson I learned from that ticket item, NEVER ASSUME YOU KNOW WHAT THE BOYS WANT/NEED UNTIL YOU'VE ASKED THEM! THEN NEVER TAKE "I DUNNO" FOR AN ANSWER!

You have an "established" troop with a blend of ages. One patrol. First of all are you two older boys "tapping" out or aging out? Big difference if you have experienced 16 year olds getting their Eagle and quitting and experienced 16 year olds getting Eagle and going to use those skills to help the troop/patrol. What, if anything, is being done to "groom" the 2 potential Webelos boys? That should be a very high priority at this point. They can walk away in a heartbeat leaving you with yet another year of dwindling numbers. What about friends of the boys you already have? Anything done there? What about direct contact recruiting in the middle school every year to generate potential new boys. Remember boys don't need Cubbing to be a Boy Scout. Your biggest "FEEDER PACK" is really your middle school. Most council do well with recruiting Cub Scouts and recruiting Boy Scouts is non-existent. That has to change if scouting is to survive. What about once a month setting up a recruiting table outside Bass Pro, Cabelas, Gander Mountain, Dicks, Sheel's, anyplace where sporting good are sold, canoe/kayak shops, even Walmart sporting good section if allowed? Keep that up until you have too many boys. It's one thing to watch Bear do his thing on TV and quite another to live the adventure oneself. BSA scouting is now competing on a national market and needs to change. National doesn't seem to be in a hurry, but according to your numbers you need to...now! I'm at 2 active boys right now, we hosted 6 Webelos boys at our winter campout, there's a potential of 34 more in our feeder packs and we are making plans to recruit in the schools in the area AND we've been hounding our council for BSA recruiting material for hitting the local sporting goods stores. We talked with one of the feeder packs and suggested they be sponsored by our CO, they were having problems with their CO. They are now with our CO. The meet at the same time same night, at the same place and the 2 Boy Scouts are working with the Webelos DL to get the boys in that pack their AOL. Because we were doing it for the one pack, the other two packs are invited to come and get their AOL as well. The biggest group comes from a pack that didn't do dens!!!! they had a pack meeting and an activity once a month instead of den meetings. They are EXTREMELY interested in coming over and getting their boys the AOL. Do ya think they might be appreciative enough to join our troop with their 19 boys? Hopin' so! Don't focus just on what's happening in your troop. Find out what's going on in the world around you and tap into it for your boys. All's fair in love and war.