Stosh

Sometimes I use the extreme and outrageous on the forums as a form of sarcasm. Sometimes I use it for humor. I don't as if I have ever used it in a serious discussion on an issue that may involve life or death. I'm not advocating AK-47's as part of the patrol chuck box, but I have carried a sheath knife and 6' closet rod "walking stick" with me on many scout outings in the past 15 years. I felt it necessary after realizing the situation of being in Philmont the year 4 boys ended up in the hospital from bear attacks, Tooth of Time cleared out in the middle of the night after a bear invaded the camp and would not be scared off, and the next year a boy was killed at a neighboring council's summer camp due to a bear attack. It wasn't any mass attack from a lone crazed killer, but an accumulation of events that indicated to me I had better do a better job of being prepared. I don't carry a gun on scout activities, but would if the powers that are wouldn't restrict my preparedness efforts. Sheath knife (carried on a belt), duct tape (carried in my first aid kit) and 6' closet rod (carried in my hands) do allow for a limited ability to do my best to due my duty as a SM. Have I ever had to use any of these? Well a 6' walking stick with a hook in the end can safely pick up a coiled rattlesnake and gently toss him off the trail. It's old technology, but if I have to shepherd a bunch of young boys out into the world, the rod and staff is better than nothing. So, yes, in fact I do carry weapons on scout outings.

Sounds like fun.

And did the question get answered? Probably not, probably won't, maybe we can look at some more reasonable situations that might warrant some consideration for the topic being discussed.

Gee, JoeBob, I've never had the kinds of issues you face. I hope I never have. However, I have been in troops where the issues faced were very similar. My first troop I was ASM and sounds very much like what you have. Adult run. Boys figure out that if they sit on their hands long enough, make grandiose mistakes and patiently wait them out, the adults will do the work. It works when they deal with their parents, it works at church school and church youth programs, it works all over the place. This is why we have 30 year olds still trying to play the game and frustrated, but enabling parents keeping the problem going. I've been in the position when a patrol didn't do their shopping. I knew about it when we left. I didn't say anything. Eventually the boys had to fess up. I came over, sat down by the fire ring and waited them out. They finally asked me when I was going to go get the food. The answer was, "Never". I don't think any had heard such a response from an adult before because they didn't know what to say next. I just kept waiting. There was a small convenience store about a half mile away I knew would be there before we left so I wasn't worried, but the boys were beginning to. Of course the store wasn't the problem. They also hadn't collected the money for the trip either. This was the grouping up from the NSP. Adults kept a eye on them and contributed to their training. Once done with that they were allowed out of the nest. Needless to say, the boys dug in their pockets and scrounged up enough money to make it through the weekend. It was only 4 meals and no one was going to starve to death in the meantime. They worked out their problem and learned the adults meant what they said about boy-led. I'm thinking the word got out because I never had an incident like that ever since. Did it solve the problem for these boys? No, they tried pushing the envelop on other issues and it never worked out well for them. They finally gave up and got to work. Boys will always push to get out of work. The question that always ruins the process is having adults who feel it necessary and haven't the nerve to not enable their poor behavior. Ad hoc patrols? If only two of the eight go, the two end doing a lot of camp chores and don't have as much fun. A couple outing like that and they start bugging their buddies about showing up otherwise they have been known to dump a few of the slackers and replace them with patrol members willing to help out. JoeBob, you and I have agreed on a ton of this scouting stuff, but we're a few miles apart on this one. The boys know that if they horse around long enough the adults will cave. If you ever wish to try it again in the future, which I hope you do, you get all your adults on the same page and then make a pact that you'll "sponsor" each other when the temptation to give in comes along. I got a bit of mileage out of an attempt I did with my adult-led troop as ASM. I was given permission to form a patrol and work with it "as an experiment". The boys called themselves the "honor patrol" which kinda ticked off the others, but they buckled down and really did a bang up job. They actually did too well. The SM stepped in and broke up the patrol and had this boys all take over PL's of the other patrols, and other troop POR's. That's not what they wanted and within 6 months all but one of the boys was gone from the troop. The SM justified his actions by letting everyone know that they were at the age of quitting anyway.

It doesn't necessarily need to meet the "mass murder" criteria in order to justify providing defense of boys in our care. If It means saving just one life, or preventing one debilitating injury, it would be worth it. We don't need it to rank up there with media sensationalism to qualify for prudent behavior. Boy Scout camp... a boy with a candy bar in his camp provided wall tent... in a campsite of scouts... bear enters camp smells food, knocks over the tent and before anyone could do about it, the scout is dead. Not really a mass murder situation, but unfortunate nonetheless. If any of the staff or scouters been armed would it have made a difference? One boy will never know... neither will the rest of us.

We can train the boys until we are blue in the face, but if we never trust them, which is a major problem for adults in our society, we will never get to the third step. If I am constantly coaching, guiding and mentoring, then I'm still on the first step.

If the bus ain't going where you need to be, it's time to get off the bus. No big deal. It's akin to if you don't want to follow a certain leader because they aren't taking care of you, then it's okay to find one that does.

Narcissistic, charismatic "leaders" may get a few followers, but if they acquire proper leverage for power they can abuse it for the sake of a few. Most despots have come this route. Only the compassionate will work, (and lead) for the greater good. This may have explained why an obscure nun working in the worst part of poverty, helping the least able, obtained world recognition. People didn't need to follow her, but they came from all over the world to do so. Bureaucracy need only cull the waste and corruption to naturally lead appropriately. There's nothing magical about changing it, just reduce it's size. However, no one is going to be the one responsible for killing the Golden Goose so nothing will change.

I wasn't speaking from my perspective, I was trying to give the impression of how I think parents view the operation of the troop. As compared by parents (adult standards) a unit where the "leader" doesn't do anything but drink coffee and the boys have the run of the place, it's not going appear to be efficiently run. They are comparing it to the end product where they don't realize youth-led is a work in progress, not the end product. That's where I think the big disconnect happens from an outsider's point of view.

How does this fit in with the current method of adult-led, troop-method as the best, most effective way to run the scout program. Best leaders are the adults and the multiple hands of the whole troop are more effective than a few led by an inexperienced youth. I'm thinking that until the concept that Boy Scouts is a means of fast tracking the military, college applications and job resume references, the boy-led, patrol-method concept will be lip-service at best in the majority of units. One has to buck the system and be old-fashioned to stick with any 100+ year old ideals for modern youth. People today aren't interested in character development and leadership skills as much as they are self-improvement and financial success for oneself.

If one is out there "leading" and no one is following, one might want to rethink their vision.

Or, one could find out what the vision of the people is and then implement that. I'm sure the people can get behind that kind of approach rather easily.

Patrols Ideals Outdoor Programs Advancement Associations with Adults Personal Growth Leadership Development Uniform If one were to stop and think about ANY of the methods of scouting it would leave oneself scratching their head. This thread is trying to understand the Patrol Method. Why isn't that very clear? Ideals Method - Ever hear anyone talk about this one? Outdoor Programs - and yet there are troops out there that don't camp. How's that possible? Advancement - I wonder where the term pencil whipping requirements, MB Days (obviously one of the many "outdoor programs") and Eagle Mills come from. Association with adults - can't even find much common ground on this one other than 2-deep LEADERSHIP. Personal growth - how is this any different than the advancement method? Leadership Development - using management techniques for organizational excellence..... Uniforms - not even required to own one and bits and pieces are okay. But if you're going to Jambo or make Eagle you're gonna need some scout pants...maybe socks, too. Other than a possible listing off the cuff at some training session somewhere, how much focus has BSA done to develop any of these methods in the trained personnel they have to run their organization? Sorry to hijack the thread, but I'm thinking a whole day seminar on the principles of the Patrol Method is but a finger in the dike situation for modern American Scouting.

First of all welcome to the forum. Secondly I think resqman is correct. One of the major problems with the "ISA" issue is that somehow there seems to be this idea that these "credit" funds somehow belong to the boy. If that's the idea one has received, it is simply not true for reasons resqman has identified. This is the #1 reason my troop does not do ISA's is because I do not want anyone to ever get the idea that there is a single penny in the troop's finances that somehow in any way shape or form "belongs" to them. It never was and is not now the boys' money. I would suggest that if your son is interested in having funds available to him for his scouting career, he seek "fund raising" opportunities outside of scouting, i.e. raking leaves, shoveling snow, doing odd jobs, running errands, etc. There is nothing in the rule book that says a scout can't let the customer know up front that he is earning money for his scout trips, summer camp, equipment, etc. If one looks at the old scout handbooks, this is how it is recommended for the boy to be Thrifty. As a matter of fact I believe it a Tenderfoot requirement to open a bank account and seed it with a certain amount of cash at one time. A scout pays his own way, he doesn't look to the troop to provide him with a handout for his efforts. I know it's not what one wants to hear, but it is how it used to be in scouting when I was a kid.

Wow, that's a tough one. I guess as a part of the curriculum I would incorporate an overview (without getting too philosophical or boring, about the patrol being a microcosm of society small enough so that fledgling leaders have an opportunity to put into practice development of those personal skills they will need once they reach adulthood. A break down of processes would include opportunity for leadership selection, succession, etc.; management task and group organization skill development, team building development, responsibility development and conflict management skills. An emphasis of this happening in a safe environment separated from the distractions of modern societal contexts of home, church and schools (and other adults ). That's a start.....

St Standard Operating Procedure, a.k.a. That's the way we've always done it before On the other hand, I like my boys to do a little flying by the seat of their pants. It allows them to try out their skills to see how they work, kinda like making sure they have wings before kicking them out of the nest. About half way from the nest to the ground every little bird has to figure it out on their own terms what works best for them.

Leadership is taking care of your people, ALL of them, not just some of them. It's a lesson lost in America today.

I know for a fact there was a major pot bust back in the 80's in a State Park in north central Iowa. It happens all over the place. Iowa has had aerial surveillance going on for year because it's very easy to grow pot in the middle of a corn field. Also Iowa was a major grower back in the 40's when rope was needed for the war effort. Railroad right-aways are still being sprayed today for "weeds". One just doesn't know nowadays.

I get a little nervous when one starts using management language when it comes to leadership development with the boys. Every boy is different and SOP's are counter-intuitive to that. Boys working on leadership need to focus on their skills they are bringing to the table and not worry about the last guy's SOP that he worked on. When the leadership changes in my troops, it has been because of issues other than SOP. An older boy ages out, the boy signed up for football and now needs to pass the baton. or the boy got elected and isn't doing the job and his buddies replace him. A boy following a well-liked aged out boy is going to have a tough time with the other boy's SOP, some pretty big shoes to fill and his skills, maybe nobody's skill set can replace him. This does not bode well for the successors. Temporary stepping down leader? His replacement might be just a temp fill in until the season's over. He will do well just to keep things going and shouldn't be messing with the SOP. The third case situation? Well if the new leader does anything, it'll be an improvement, but that isn't necessarily going to be enough. Also judging a boy's leadership style with management measurements is really unfair to the boy. I have had flamboyant, outgoing, charismatic leaders who weren't worth a nickel with management and relied heavily on his assistants for that. I have had quiet, soft-spoken, caring leaders who were equally liked by the boys that didn't need the assistants as much. Know your skills, know your strengths, don't worry about any SOP, just take care of your boys and you'll do just fine.

Statistically speaking gun-free zones are more likely to be targeted than other areas. The cynicism I was drawing out is the schools, theaters, churches and Weapon-Free Zones are the ones that make the big press coverage and these idiots want the publicity. In actuality the most targeted location is the workplace and unfortunately the vast majority of them are Weapon-Free Zones. That may change soon in that Tennessee introduced legislation allowing individuals and their families to sue property owners who post their property as Weapon-Free Zones and their loved one who had a gun carry permit, was injured or killed. It's similar to the idea that if one posts a Warning: Vicious Dog sign, that owner is more liable if the dog bites someone than the owner who doesn't post and doesn't know his dog is vicious. So Calico, if you ever want to be safe, you are invited to any of my scout activities in which some are routinely conducted in bear country with the occasional cougar. But be warned, it is in a rather high crime area as well and I don't carry when I'm with scouts. I don't, but you should feel safe.

Two days ago it was sub zero temperatures. Today it is above freezing..... and it's Friday..... do the math.

LOL! I camped just about every spring through fall weekend growing up. Never got tired of it. There's no such thing as too much camping.

@@Sentinel947 I love the story! It proves to me one very important aspect of Adult Association.... SM #1 takes care of his boys he shares who he is and listens, encourages and takes an interest. SM #2 has problems just keeping his head above water. SPL struggles as well, conflict on who's really leading the unit. SM #3 is in over his head but he has a scout that has learned how to listen, encourage and takes an interest in the new guy. No top dog, no guides, no coaches, just two guys working things through as partners in leadership. Never, never, never underestimate the power the simple act of servant leadership can d to a young boy during his developmental years. Experienced scouter? Sounds like you were there before you signed the adult registration form. Well done. You have a whole lifetime to help young boys experience what you have to offer.

I don't think the Brits are any different than us Yanks. Most people are naturally drawn to the extremes, be it curiosity or ignorance. Like the old staying goes, "Don't confuse me with facts." I would think that the majority of people never bother to check out the reality of the situation and in order to sell their product the media never tells the whole story if even what they do tell is incorrect. In no instance where I was part of an incident did the media ever get the story correct. We Yanks are heavy into a presidential election cycle. This means there are a number of candidates that all go out and solicit millions of dollars in exchange for political favors promised to be fulfilled should they be elected so that they have an opportunity to tell lies about the other person and get elected by the majority of the gullible voters. And who gets elected, the one with the best lies and empty promises. Go figure.

@@Krampus Promise me you'll never take a job with the UN or US Ambassador Corps.