Stosh

I like this because my troop is NOTHING like yours!

We live in a polarized society. You's either fer it or you's agin it, there ain't no middlin' ground fer ya ta stand on. We will stand and argue until we're all Smurfs and it accomplishes nothing. Compromise is a four-letter word with a few extra letters. There's a whole generation out there (label it anything you want) that has no skills in conflict management, diplomacy, or even tact. Adding those kinds of real issues to the Citizenship MB's would make them thicker than Thin Mint Girl Scout cookies and it wouldn't make a bit of difference because the boys don't read the book anyway. Your mileage may vary.

@@Sentinel947 Just recently I have begun to hear things a bit differently than what I assumed I heard originally. I'll just stick with the NSP issue because we're on it. I'm thinking that when I use the term NSP, it is universal in usage and application throughout the BSA. What I hear Krampus say about his experience with NSP is not the same as what I experience in my neck of the woods. Barry's definitions about boy-led are not indicative of what it means here. Some people use certain terms that mean one thing to one person and something quite differently to another. Even with all the location differences, and the definition/understanding differences, and emotional nuance differences, it seems to be the consensus of assuming the worse in 99% of the cases. No one ever questions further for greater clarity, they just start boiling things over on the stove. More than once I have gone back to my posts and reread them numerous times and for the life of me can't figure out how another on the forum drew the conclusion they did from what I wrote. Did I make a typo? Is there a definition of a word that has two different meanings? Was I speaking in Tongues? Was I half awake when I wrote it? I dunno! So until those on the forum stop assuming the worse in other people's comments and start asking for clarity on an issue they find contrary to their own situation, this haggling is probably not going to go away anytime soon and it would probably be best to just put everything in I&P and not worry about it anymore. I can see why Krampus doesn't like NSP's. I don't like the NSP's in his area he describes either and I'm one that really likes NSP's, but only those NSP's that really function like NSP's run by the scouts and not Webelos III dens run by adults. Once that got cleared up, it makes an opportunity to maybe work with blw2 type troops who have Webelos III dens and help him move that one troop closer to a functional boy-led NSP. One troop at a time is good. Maybe what we say might help any number of lurkers out there that are struggling with their troops as well. We'll never know if all we ever do is bicker and fight.

You are correct. However, on the forum here I do use the labels to make it clear the type of patrol I am referring to, but when I'm in my troop or around other troops, the patrols are referred to by their specific, boy chosen names. If the older boys wish to think of the new guys as new guys instead of "the Ravens", then they usually get a lot of blank stares from me and the other adults. Not all the new boys go into the newest patrol (i.e. NSP), some choose to go with older siblings or new friends in the other patrols if they so choose.

One always needs to seek out ways to create opportunities for the boys to lead. It's hard to relinquish control to young boys that we think can't be trusted. Maybe it is always a good time to create for the adults the opportunity to trust, too. At first it is very difficult to do. I remember when I was at that point early in my years working with kids. Once one realizes how much easier life can be with them as true allies/peers in the process, things work out a lot easier for the adults. Basically it's my secret trump card for not ever having burned-out after working with kids for over 45 years. And the kicker is, with all the boys doing and functioning in their roles, there really is nothing left for the adults to do but drink coffee. Sorry, but in Barry's troop one has to wait 6 months before they get their first cup of campfire Joe. (Yeah, I know, I'm gonna take some heat for that comment... )

Or when confronted by others in his troop as to where he got such lame-brained ideas about how to run a troop using the boys as leaders, he can always says he got it from the idiots on the scouter.com forum.

One must always take into consideration that an 11 year-old can spot adult hypocrisy in a heartbeat. It doesn't take 40 years of experience to spot a con-job. They also do even better at recognizing sincere concern on the part of the adults whenever that is offered as well. Listen, encourage and take an interest in the boy is the definition of adult association. Anything more than that could be seen/defined as interference. Your mileage may vary.

Based on these closing comments of the post, may I suggest taking what you know and working with the ASM to make sure the NSP has a real chance at developing into a Scout patrol instead of a Webelos den? This is my suggestion for leading from the back seat. Help the ASM understand boy-led, patrol-method, trusting your boys, and letting them lead. Nothing in the BSA book says you can't do that! From your description of the guy, I seriously think he isn't going to tell you to bugger off. Worst case scenario, you gain an enemy. Best case scenario, you now have two boy-led, patrol-method champions in the troop. If the two of you pull it off, every new Webelos boy will be eternally grateful for the opportunity to be a real Boy Scout from day one in the troop. If nothing else, getting these new boys in the routine of self-leading will carry over into the future years of the troop as the boys get older.

I'm doubling down on what @@scoutldr says, GET AN AUDIT. I would go to the CO's treasurer and have him/her do it. After all, it's their money! If anything looks questionable, I would notify the CC and hold off on taking the job until it is all cleared up. I would then set up books, a spreadsheet if nothing else, and track every single penny of the troops money backed up with receipts. Then I would work a deal that before every annual meeting of the CO, a complete audit of books and funds be done and "certified" as properly in order. If the CC thinks that's too much of a hassle or not necessary, then they can find another treasurer. If the CC is taking care of his people, then this is not too much to ask. If the CC is not taking care of his people, then I wouldn't take the job, especially not the Treasurer's job. By the way @@blw2 next time you go some place like a volunteer organization, make sure you have pulled your hat brim down farther. They saw "Newbie" written all over your forehead the minute you walked through the door. Personally, I would have waited a year to see how things shape up before making any commitment. As a parent, one can often lead "from the back seat". It's a technique I teach my older boys. Don't stand out as a leader, but help the leadership be good by supporting, suggesting, finding opportunities for improvement, and subtly slipping it in from behind the scenes. My older boys work this well with the younger fledgling leaders in the troop.

If my council didn't subsidize my trip to the Centennial Jamboree, I would not have attended. The cost and the "A Scout is Thrifty" ideal did not add up in any way shape or form for me. The cost of all new tents, patrol setups, kitchen setups, silk screened backpacks, silk screened duffel bags, neckers, travel, etc. much of which was for me a total waste of money. It would seem that image was more important than being thrifty. For me, Jambo, Philmont, etc. are all "once-in-a-lifetime" events for me, I would never pay that kind of money to ever go again. For $6,000 I could travel to Seattle, jump the ferry all the way up to Ancorage, enjoying every little port of call. Then drive to Denali for a few days of backpacking, only to return via the land route through Canada enjoying the Canadian Rockies all the way back. I could probably do it with my old backpack and duffel I got from the Centennial Jamboree. Maybe not, at that price, I could probably buy all new, including an RV.

The black hole of politics sucks up everything, it has no concern for the moral, social or ethical stance of that which it affects, it truly does take the good with the bad. But just like the stock market, after every major adjustment, it seems to continue, on a less potential level, but continue nonetheless.

They may walk out the door of your house, but not your life. Just heard last Sunday one of my boys just got a job with the local police department, another one had a new baby. Last Friday I was out eating birthday dinner with my son when a gentleman approached me and reintroduced himself, his wife, his son to me. He was a youth from a different troop on my contingent to Philmont in 2000 and remembered me. Until that Friday, we hadn't seen each other for over 15 years but he remembered me and remembered me by name. I remembered him by name as well. He of course had a beard and I wouldn't have been able to pick him out of a lineup if my life depended on it. All that in one week, a typical week for me. I have a ton of not-so-young-anymore "kids" that still play a part in my life. One never knows the impact they make in the lives of these boys (or kids, my church youth group kids still keep in touch too.)

As it should be.

and this from the guy who hates NSP's? You've been drinkin' the Koolaid haven't cha? I get this kind of thing out of my new boys all the time. Maybe this is why my NSP's are working for me. Never underestimate the boys they really are young adults in more ways than us old people give them credit for. My advice, Cambridge, run your 10-14 year olds like the 14-18 year olds run their program. That is pretty much the span of scouts here. I get a lot out of my young boys, they have the most energy and have something to prove.

People who say they will try have already decided there is a failure option to the attempt. Or they mean no and haven't the courage to say it out loud.

JASM's in our area tend to be retired Eagles who have yet to age out. They basically have nothing to do and they tend to do it well.

THAT is not a boy-led NSP! You are absolutely correct this is Webelos III! No other way to explain it. 30 ASM's? Adult led all the way! SPL with 10 patrols needs 2-3 ASPL's to handle the crowd. There would be very little interaction between SPL and PL's it would most likely be good ASPL's handling the patrols and 4 TG's handling the 4 NSP's if run correctly. No way would I get anywhere near a unit like that. It's kinda sad if one thinks about it a bit.

As one can tell from the way Krampus described the NSP in his area, it is a lot different than those using it in my area. I would assume the same dynamic would hold true for the mixed patrols. This of course implies a degree of mixture that also may vary. Mixed by one or two years or do the 16-17 year olds have Webelos cross overs in their patrol? Maybe they are generally mixed just a little younger boys 11-13, middle group boys 13-15, and older boys 15-17. Maybe the age based patrols might vary a year or two either way, too. We discuss the differences but never have really defined what that means. All I know is there seems to be a general age consensus of the boys coming in together staying somewhat together in the troop. Now that I am drawing from 3 different packs with my new troop, maybe that won't be an issue anymore. The boys might break up their groupings, may come in with multiple smaller NSP's of same-pack Webelos, or whatever. I don't know yet what the boys will decide. The only factor that I see is how the patrols are grouped and by whom. There is no adult involvement in the selection and maintenance of patrols in my troops. The only people who care who's in what patrol are the boys. So they decide.

Generally speaking, I don't get involved in the NSP issue very much. I have to now because my whole troop is basically a NSP. However, in my former troop, when the Webelos boys crossed over into Boy Scouts they showed up at their first meeting a wee bit nervous. Usually what happens is there might be one or two of the boys that got to know some of the older boys during the visit meetings/activities, and may be invited into an established patrol. Of course this is allowed. The new boy has right of refusal if all his buddies are staying together as a group in the NSP. The NSP also has the option to select an older boy to be their PL. The PL-elect has right of refusal. The TG is also an option for the NSP. Usually the SPL assigns a qualified TG, once the TG was the former DC for the boys. Once the DC was selected as PL for the NSP and the SPL still provided a TG to help the former DC. Every combination is possible and those options stay the same. If a boy wishes to switch patrols and the PL approves it, it's a done deal. If the NSP wants to stay together all the way to age 18, it's a done deal. I don't care one way or the other. The NSP issue for me is basically preferred by the boys themselves. They are coming into a new setting, things are different, kinda scary and hanging together as buddies since Tigers is a safe place to be for a lot of these boys. Unlike Kramus' experience of adult contrived NSP's, some of these boys prefer on their own a lot of the dynamics of the NSP, others don't, accommodations for both are allowed in my troops.

Darn it, blw2's comments didn't come with the quote. No. If the TG is in charge then he's a patrol leader. If you go with that model then why call him a troop guide. Have him be the NSP PL. I make it explicitly clear that the TG is not in charge of the NSP. In my troops all PL's are the highest ranking authority in the troop for their patrols. Everyone else supports their work and that includes the TG for the PL of the NSP. Basically the TG's focus is to help the NSP PL's get up and running. He works with the PL, not the patrol. If the NSP selects one of their own, the TG is going to be busy. If the NSP selects another boys from the troop to be the PL, the job is a bit easier, but even then the PL may have his hands full with a patrol of new people. Then if the NSP is really lucky, they get a qualified PL that can handle a NSP situation, the TG can focus on other things. Which then begs the question: What good is a NSP? If you are going to have a TG/PL and then some older scouts help from time to time, why not just call it a patrol of mixed ages? *BOOM* You now have the patrol method and take the training wheels off the Webelos IIIs. The focus of the NSP is different than any of the other patrols. Having "some older scouts help from time to time" isn't how the structure of the troop is supposed to be done. For some rather obscure reason, BSA has put a POR out there call Instructor. I'm sure there are very few troops out there that actually use them as they were intended. The "mixed" patrols with lets say 4 patrols and 2 boys from the Webelos group in each one. Instructor is going to conduct woods tools training. That means EVERY PATROL IN THE TROOP is going to be down two boys for the instruction period. How much instruction disruption is going to occur in say maybe the first half of every year? Maybe all year if the boys doing get up to FC. Maybe if they aren't eagle mills maybe it'll last 18-24 months. However if the NSP were comprised of only new scouts, the NSP gets instruction and everyone else has business as usual. It might be a good time to review just exactly what it is that Instructors do to earn their POR. I cannot help but think the whole new scout patrol idea was created by adults to make it easier on them, not better for the boys. I think it's a great way to focus the boy's attention on orienting, integrating and getting to know the new boys in the troop without adult interference. If it weren't designated a NSP and 12 new Webelos boys came into the troop, how much disruption would there be in the established patrols? Is this disruption even necessary and how much of his disruption is orchestrated by adult intervention requiring the boys to assimilate the new boys into their patrols? I'm thinking the NSP was introduced to keep the adults from having to disrupt their patrol structure every year. Of course that would be a moot point if the troop didn't really use the patrol method anyway. Then it's a dump the boys into the troop and let things fall where they may. That's the easiest for the adults. This happens in every patrol any way. Doesn't have to. In troops I have seen that use the NSP, once you get First Class you go out to "older" patrols. To be honest, the troops in my area that use the NSP concept are all Eagle mills. Once my boys get to FC they don't need to go out to "older" patrols if they don't want to. This again is contrived by adults. I'm not sending my boys out into "older" patrols and I am in no way an Eagle mill troop. And strangely enough I like the NSP idea. But then I'm a bit different than most. The NSP is adding another year of training wheels for the boys. Nope, my NSP is expected to function just like any other patrol in the troop. The only thing different is the TG, the SPL/ASPL and Instructors tend to focus on them more than the other patrols until they get their feet on the ground. You don't teach them self-sufficiency. They start learning self-sufficiency at age 11, they don't have to wait until they are 13-14 to start as in another patrol. They are told what to do, not how to figure out what to do. By whom? They make their own decisions just like any other patrol. They do have a TG and SPL to seek advice from if needed, but they don't have an ASM assigned to them to Den Lead them for another year. None of the patrols have adult advisors in my troops. They sink or swim on their own merits, NSP, too. It is a very Millennial mind set. I think it is done so as to make the stress less on the adults; not having to chase around 6 patrols of rowdy kids rather lump them in one group and put an adult in charge. I would just have 6 TG chase the rowdy kids around rather than having a Cub Pack in my troop. Everyone whines about none of the older boys working with the younger scouts, they have to have them in the patrols. Well if that's the way it's set up, then that's fine, but I find that my TG's, my Instructors, PL's all earn their POR's because they have the option to work with these new boys directly and get credit for it, not just do it because the PL told them to do it in the patrol structure. As you can tell, I am not a fan of NSPs. If this is how NSP's are set up in your neck of the woods, I wouldn't be a fan either.

On our streets the first customer question when asked to buy popcorn is "How much?" often followed by "No way!" Sell the camp angle all you want, few people are interested in plopping down $10 for 4 ounces of bad caramel corn. Whereas our local convenience store sells Christmas wreaths the same as the Boy Scouts for the same price, people do buy from the scouts instead. On the other hand 4 oz of caramel corn for $10 (? I'll take your word on that ) the same convenience store sells pretty good stuff for 5 oz for $1.50. The reason I know this is I just finished up a bag and wrapper is in my pocket.

Methinks there's a problem here.... Of course that's Webelos!!! One calls them Webelos III and then sets out to set them up as adult led, extended Cub Scout dens without any notion to thinking they should be set up just like any other boy-led, patrol-method grouping and then complain that they don't work. Yep works for me.... Call them anything one wishes, but if one sets them up as a boy-led, patrol-method patrol with an experienced TG to support their efforts, their PL and APL will learn leadership, the TG will teach them about equipment, the Scribe will teach them about records, the Instructors will come in and teach them skills, and the adults will stay out of the process and go off and get another cup of coffee and allow these new boys an opportunity to be a boy led Boy Scout patrol instead of an adult led Cub Scout den. If this is the way troops are setting up faltering NSP's and then saying they're bad news, it answers a lot of questions for me. Remember: It's a New Scout PATROL.

Cambridge, I'm going to sing the same old song because it does work for me and it might be another option for you to consider. First of all I would suggest the youth themselves determine their own 6-8 member groupings of which they select one or two to be their PL/APL (or equivalent in the UK). Rudimentary training of "Take care of your people" for all those leaders. I also treat all my boys as adults. I reinforce this by referring to them by title and surname. I expect the same respect in return. I have only 3 rules: 1) Safety first 2) Look and act like a scout 3) Have fun With that said, I would sit back and watch what happens and evaluate how your youth react to the situation you have created. If they come for advice, always make sure they have the option of taking ownership of the solution. One never wants them to go back to their group and say, "Mr. Cambridgeship told us to do it this way." Instead one is working towards the kids going back and presenting, "Mr. Cambridgship suggested we look at the possibility of.... what does everyone think?" Last but not least is the issue addressed first. You have younger kids. It makes no never mind. Treat them as if they are the 14-18 year old Explorers. I have found over the years that kids have a tendency to step up in maturity quicker when given the opportunity to do so. It's kind of like the self-fulfilling prophesy dynamic of psychology. If you treat them like children they will act like children. If you treat them like adults, they will step up. This, after 40 years of working with kids, has been proven to me over and over again as true.

I guess I need to get my head around some of the issues here. From my experience, the well oiled machines are out there, but they are by no means boy-led but may or may not make a cosmetic attempt at the patrol method. They have a strong adult vision as to what the program is all about, have the 12 outings a year, high adventure every year rotating between Philmont, Sea Base, and BWCA. Summer camp is seldom in the council camp, it is well known how disappointing it is if the troop doesn't bring in a half dozen ribbons for the troop flag at camporee, everyone in the council knows how many Eagles this troop has produced, the SM and 2 ASM's are Silver Beaver, etc. etc. etc ad nauseum. This is not an amalgamation of a number of troops from my past experiences, it is the troop I served as an ASM. I didn't even go into detail about the troop trailer that served as a troop kitchen. It was the envy of all other troops. What else is not mentioned is the fact that they took on 20-25 new Webelos boys every year and lost that number throughout the year. They remained stagnant in average membership at about 30 boys, the number the SM and 7 ASM's could accommodate. It was this troop I as a lone ASM attempted to work on my boy-led, patrol-method skills, getting nowhere of course. The problem with this was the total myopia of those involved. No one saw any of this as a problem. Everyone in the council spoke of this troop as the troop to emulate. On the other hand anyone who was capable of understanding beyond the box saw differently and being one of those, I had to leave the troop. I went into direct "competition" with the troop by becoming a SM in the same neighborhood as them. I had 5 boys and a long road ahead of me. I had to endure the competitive hassling of the other troop constantly. They even went to the council about me stealing boys from the troop when I picked up a few of the boys that dropped out of the troop on a regular basis. I knew how they operated and gleaned those disillusioned boys into my troop. In 3 years I had a troop the size of them, but I ran boy-led, patrol-method and for the tradition of the area, that didn't set well with adults who constantly compared us to the other "powerhouse" unit in town. So not only do the adult scouters prefer a well-oiled troop, the parents of the kids do as well, and the expectation of the community follows that precept as well and with all the accolades from district and council level scouters chiming in, boy-led, patrol-method in our area has to fight more than a troop level battle. We do have another unit in our council that makes an effort to be boy-led, but according to many of those who now finally have joined with me in the past couple of years indicate it's not as boy-led as they think they are. This comes form the Unit Commissioner who has a grandson in that troop. I do have a DE that backs me up. I took on the job of starting a new unit in an area of town at her request, smack dab in the middle of the council to take on as a boy-led, patrol-method program. I'm fighting an uphill battle. We had an Eagle from a nearby troop which is known for it's Eagle Mill program, hold his ECOH in our CO's facilities of which the boy is a member. Our recruiting efforts have produced more boys for other units in the area than our own because powerhouse units offer more opportunities with less youth effort than a boy-led, patrol-method program. So before one sets out on their "vision" for the boys, make sure to take a panoramic view of things before one commit a ton of energy and the eventual burnout from the struggle. I don't have the traditions, the ensconced committee members, the parents who constantly remind you that it's never been done that way before, and the past record to simply recopy for next year's program. Couple that with other troops nearby recruiting from the packs with high powered programs, and even stealing them away from the boy-led program because the boys are showing strong leadership from a young age and are welcomed new members to the other troops who struggle with youth leadership issues. I could cut my concerns by 2/3rds if all I had to worry about was boy-led, patrol-method in the troop alone. I don't think introducing the Patrol Method in less than a day would work around here, I don't think they could get enough people to take the class to meet the 6-8 member patrol size to experience the process.