Stosh

Many, many, many times I have seen a patrol POR do more work than a troop POR. Too often the troop POR uses that opportunity to sit back and make the patrol guys do all the work. But then I have promoted the idea that the "troop" POR's are support personnel for the Patrol POR because in the Patrol Method, the patrols is where all the action is taking place anyway. A patrol Grubmaster needs two Dutch ovens for Saturday night's dinner, he works with the patrol QM to come up with them. The patrol QM makes contact with the troop QM who takes two DO's off the shelf hands them to him which he takes responsibility for getting them to the GrubMaster and then makes sure they get cleaned up and takes them back and hands them to the troop QM.... who puts them back on the shelf. So, who does the real work????. So I'll sit in on any BOR and back up my boys and their POR's. Every one keeps pointing to EAGLE BOR's and that is a whole different animal altogether. There, the special projects option is off the table So I usually just have the Eagle candidate slap on an Instructor patch and have him teach a half dozen or so classes to the younger boys. It's not a deal breaker by any means, and it's no big deal to get the requirement fulfilled. So if any of my boys wish to do a SM special project by doing a variety of different POR's, or doing a POR on a patrol level, that's fine with me. They show they have done the work, they get the credit.

While a First Class Scout, serve actively in your unit for four months in one or more of the following positions of responsibility*** (or carry out a Scoutmaster-assigned leadership project to help the unit): Boy Scout troop. Patrol leader, assistant senior patrol leader, senior patrol leader, Venture patrol leader, troop guide, Order of the Arrow troop representative, den chief, scribe, librarian, historian, quartermaster, bugler, junior assistant Scoutmaster, chaplain aide, instructor, troop Webmaster, or Leave No Trace trainer. From the requirements, other than Troop Guide, which of these POR's indicate they are troop level only?

A Scout is Cheerful. Once one steps back and looks at the situation with a bit of distance, more often than not, it is a lot easier to see some really good things going on. ALWAYS make a comment about the positive things going on and ignore the negative. What is negative is known to be a problem and let the powers that be work on it. The boys will eventually figure things out without some adult stepping in and taking an opportunity to lead away from them.

So then this begs the question... are scouts holding POR's on the PLC or as the title states, it's the PATROL LEADERS COUNCIL chaired by the SENIOR PATROL LEADER. I would think maybe a scribe should sit in and take notes for the PLC, but only the PL's and SPL should be in attendance. APL's don't even get credit for being a leader in the patrol, what makes anyone think BSA deems them important enough for the PLC? After all they aren't PL's in any sense of the word or office designation. I think everyone ought to drag out their by-laws and rule books and start managing the leadership processes.

I am unsure of how people are selected on the COUNCIL level. That's how EBOR's are handled. These people may be those I'm am unaware of as part of a different district, but they all seem to have some sort of BSA regalia associated with them when holding the EBOR's I have been part of. Jac-shirt, hat or something like that identifying some kind of association with the BSA.

For those that need the hands-on book, they should be available, but not everyone does. For those that don't need it, a digital option should be made available. Remember, it only takes so much $ to produce an edited version of any BSA document, after that it costs nothing to put it out there are digitally available to those that want it that way. The person requiring printed copies needs to pay extra for the paper, ink, labor and postage necessary to produce and deliver the book. That's only fair.

but what do they do when you're not looking?

What?!?! No grocery stores where these other people live who are 20 minutes away?

I have no problem with individuals from the Venture Patrol being Instructors and working with the younger patrols either the NSP or the middle age patrols. It would work out that such instruction could be done without disrupting the organization/teamwork of the Venture Patrol. I just find it counter-productive to tear apart 2-3 different older patrols for an ad hoc patrol/contingent to go off to Philmont. Of course the 6-9 month prep time for the trek would take away from the day-to-day operation of the original patrols who would now be down in numbers and those numbers would be their leadership/older boys. Sure, it is possible to operate this way, but I don't see it as all that practical. If the Venture Patrol wants to head out to Philmont, no problem, they just plan, practice and go and it affects no one else in the troop. As soon as they get back from Philmont, they can immediately start making plans for Isle Royal or a 9 day trek on the AT. Otherwise they have to go back to their original patrols, re-acclimate themselves and then when time permits start their next HA. If one wants to retain these boys, those lapses and disruptions don't work in favor of keeping the boys focused on things they are interested in doing.

* Any time there's an issue like this I always use the leadership analogy of Stonewall Jackson's skills in the Civil War during the Shenandoah Valley Campaign. It was a very successful operation that caused a lot of grief for the Federal command. He ran circles around the union forces. The only complaint was that the subordinate officers of Jackson command knew nothing about what was going on in Jackson's mind. He communicated little to his officers and they simply followed along doing what Jackson told them to do at the last minute. Regardless of the major lack of communication (management of the army) the boys followed Jackson for another reason (leadership of the army), they trusted in Jackson to get them to where they needed to be and he always did even if the others didn't know where that was.

For the most part, there are a couple of things that draw people to the Venturing program that is different than the Boy Scout program. Coed is the first item on the list. However, the one or two gals that get picked up along the way usually don't justify the huge amount of energy needed to initiate and maintain a Venturing Crew. Simply the energy and cost to maintain two programs doesn't always justify the effort. A lot of Venturing Crews are sporadic, ad hoc for a special event, or are professional staff at summer camp. So, on the other hand a Venture Patrol program would be another option, but that runs counter to the whole concept of mixed-aged patrols. One cannot have a patrol of just the older, experienced, boys going off and doing high adventure activities all the time and leaving the rest of the troop without it's creme crop of leaders. Of course, being the BSA heretic that I am, I see a very easy case being made for the new orientation level patrols where the boys focus on getting acclimated to the troop operations and focusing in on rank advancement to begin with. Then there are the middle aged patrols that are helping out as Instructors, TG's, DC's etc. that are still doing advancement, but more on the MB/POR level. The older aged boys are the ones that have the "been there, done that" mentality that need to go above and beyond the mundane summer camp, camporee, types of events and get into the whitewater canoeing, the BWCA, Philmont, Sea Base, AT hiking, RAGBRAI or whatever peaks their interest. Now it takes a bit more work (but not as much as setting up a whole different organization) to run 3 different programs within the program than it does to mix up everyone in patrols and run a generic one-size-fits-all type of program. To each his own, but I don't see it being a big draw for the Venture Patrol candidates to be all that interested in teaching the New Scout Patrol candidates how to tie square knots. To me, the needs of the boys change over the course of 7 years. 6th grade boys and seniors in high school, do NOT mix. They run in different social circles, they have different maturity levels, they have different interest levels and to think that a one-size-fits all program is the answer doesn't work for me. I play to the audience I have in front of me. Tonight I have a scout meeting and the vast majority of the scouts in the room are going to be Webelos II scouts working on their AOL and the minority of the boys will be last year's Webelos II boys acting as WDC/TG helping them out. I can say for certain, the subject of BWCA and/or Philmont will not be topic of discussion. AOL and working on memorization of the Law and Oath will probably work better for the evening. Now, if I had a multiple aged troop, with multiple aged patrols, I'm thinking that within each patrol there would be 3-4 different topics being discussed at the same time. Some patrols would be interested in advancement, others service and leadership and still others might want to dream a bit about Philmont, BWCA or some other high adventure opportunity they could create for themselves. I see no major advantage for having mixed patrols other than the ease of implementing a one-size-fits-all program which is easier to control and corral.

Yes, the world is full of Luddites and those issues can be addressed quite easily. In today's world I'm sure there is at least one person in each troop that has 21st Century IT knowledge capable of getting information electronically. Yes. they may not have a Smartphone/iPhone, and they may not have a PC at home, but I've traveled all around this country and when I needed to check my email. every little small town library has a PC or two to help people connect up with the world. So, it might cost a troop a few bucks to print off a copy of the BSA publication needed, but if the BSA didn't have millions of dollars tied up in inventory in some expensive warehouse, they might not need to keep bumping the registration fees every year to pay for arcane practices. Just keep it in mind that every newspaper printed beyond what is sold today is not worth anything tomorrow. Somebody's going to pay for that and it's not the customer.

I interviewed for a job in the IT department of a global publishing company and didn't do very well. I asked too many questions of my own. After the interview, they gave me a tour of their facilities. It has a HUGE, no, a REALLY HUGE warehouse of pallet after pallet of printed materials. They had the most frequently requested material located the closest to the shipping area. The person then told me they had expansion plans to DOUBLE the size of the warehouse within the next couple of years. Seriously? I asked why they didn't go to digital? They said there are people out there that want printed copies and so I asked, why not just Print-On-Demand for those few? They said it wouldn't be feasible. To which I pretty much ended the interview by saying, "But having multi-million dollars worth of unsold inventory tied up in an ever increasing warehouse expansion project is feasible?" A scout is Thrifty. When is that going to sink in?

Which only proves beyond a shadow of a doubt, it takes only one person who's not even connected to scouting other than they have a son registered in the program can unilaterally dictate adult leadership mandates on the boys. One blink and the trust level that has been months in building is negated. I would advise that ASM that his wife NEVER takes the boys patrol shopping....ever! If he does, he needs to be prepared to go back to the store at the last minute and purchase what was on the patrol menu. If mamma decided to buy 4# of hamburger instead of 4# of steak, SHE just bought 4# of hamburger and the patrol needs to go back to the store for the 4# of steak they need for the outing.. Just remember, "mamma ain't buying steak!" Well she didn't go to the store to buy steak, she went to the store so that her son could buy steak for the patrol.

Yeah, it's kinda too bad that when a troop has only one patrol they have only one POS that counts for advancement. Of course one can always throw out the 6-8 member requirement and have 12 boys be 3 or 4 patrols to up the eligible POR's . Fred, one also must remember that the SM project for the non-Eagle ranks allows for a boy to do every POR over a 4-6 month time period and get credit as a special project. One sees this kind of POR abuse going on all the time. Guys wearing patches and doing nothing but counting the days. I guess I would rather have the scout actually doing something, even at a patrol level, which is better than nothing. For Eagle, there is no such ambiguity allowed. So, then he is the PL for 6 months, we're covered. It would be interesting to know how WWW.BSAHANDBOOK.ORG is related, if at all, with BSA. There's nothing on the site to indicate is is connected to BSA and the PDF gives no copyright credit to BSA with it's interpretation of what's in the Scout Handbook.

In Real Life, school teachers professionally handle kids in the manner described for a SM. Bring out their best, challenge them, etc. and after 4 years of education and certification these people say that 20 students per class is quite a challenge and those with 30 kids per class are often overwhelmed. Well, these are PROFESSIONALLY TRAINED people who do this as a FULL TIME CAREER and we have SM's out there with maybe a total week's worth of training handling 16 boys and he/she's going to be be "bringing out the individuals' character"? Good luck with that. I'm not missing the point, nor am I being obtuse about it either. A reality check will surly point out that it is a very rare SM that can pull that off. Instead troops rely on multiple talents of a few leaders who develop leadership characteristics in a few of the boys who are then responsible for developing leadership characteristics in yet more scouts. It's a team effort, not the sum total responsibility of a single SM.

If the scout is doing the work, he gets the POR credit. There's no difference between a QM of a troop of 1 patrol or the patrol QM of a 5 patrol troop. He's doing the same amount of work. In my small units, my boys often double up on POR's anyway and a boy that is APL might also be the Chaplain's Aide and Historian as well. Do they wear the patch? Nope, but they document the work they do and get credit for multiple POR's for their advancement requirement. There's nothing in the requirement that states that the 4/6 month time has to be filled with just one POR. If Fred's argument is carried through to the end, a single patrol troop would never have anyone receiving POR credit for anything other than PL ..... Or they can have a SPL that does nothing but wear a patch and get advancement credit pencil whipped. And as far as doubling up on the POR's how many Instructors can a troop have? Den Chiefs? Chaplain's Aides? TG's? ASPL's? So why would Scribe or QM be any different?

There's some question as to whether or not the "old" WB and the "new" WB carry the same weight in America. I do know that in our council the "old" WB guys are not considered for such things as leadership on Jambo contingents, etc. I have been told many times that if I take the course over again, those options would be opened to me. Maybe other countries aren't as ______ as they are here in the US.

In my first troop where I was an ASM we kept an eye on each other's kids and if one got out of hand, someone other than dad stepped in. In my second troop I was SM and the biggest pain in the butt was the former SM's son. I've related the story in other threads but as soon as dad stepped aside, things changed. The chip on the shoulder disappeared really quickly. I haven't had a son in the program now for almost 20 years now, but being in the SM position makes it easier to deal with ASM's children, I just "pull rank" on the ASM.

@@blw2 and @@Peregrinator First of all one is assuming that all the really important stuff is to remain in the hands of the adults. Getting to know the boys, etc. If that be the case that this is the responsibility of the SM, then I would suggest tossing out the Patrol Method because all that does is provide babysitting service run by a supervised PL. To go with the argument that the SM is the sole keeper of the known, means there is no need to any other real leadership to take place and that the PL who knows his boys and takes care of them really isn't necessary in the long run. After all they can't be trusted with something as important as SM being able to effectively handle/control 16 boys. Nope, Sorry, I've seen it work otherwise. 28 boys, 4 patrols, 1 SM, 1 ASM and we had a fairly smooth running operation. I have to admit that running that light on the adult end of the supervisory stick meant that more of the leadership had to pass to the boys which in my book is what it's all about anyway. Worked fine for us. Your mileage may vary.

The goal is to have a functional job for everyone. Like the SPL, the troop level POR is used only if necessary due to multiple patrols. When we had 4 patrols we had a full complement of LC POR's. If there are two patrols and 2 QM's they can work out the logistics on their own without a hassle. 3 patrols? could get a bit dicey at times when 2 older QM's took advantage of the younger QM and that's when it was suggested that the troop have IPA's. Individual Patrol Accounts. If your patrol raised the money and bought the equipment, no other patrol was allowed to used it without the owner patrol's permission. All the equipment eventually had patrol ID's on it and a section of the troop trailer to store it. That pretty much meant that each patrol needed it's own QM. Not much need then for the troop QM. Like the SPL, that role was filled on an ad hoc basis and it applied to all the troop level POR's as well. We also had a lot of the POR's multiply held by the Individual as well. QM also stepped in many times as an Instructor. There was some equipment that was "troop" owned such as the splits and bandages used for teaching first aid, etc. In the interest of not wanting to lend it out only to have it lost, the QM would teach the S2FC instruction on first aid so he could keep tabs on the equipment. In the smaller units of only one or two patrols, multiple PORs were assumed ad hoc all the time.

Silver Duck, welcome to the forums. Just remember that without a compass, a person will always circle back around to where they started. In your situation that was a good thing.

Aren't power struggles a ton of fun? One would think that by the time one got to adulthood some maturity might have settled in around the edges a bit? Nope. These are the same people who are going to be complaining about how the nursing home is run when they get there. The sad part about it, once it gets out of hand, all the nice people don't want anything to do with it leave and by the time they dump the troublemaker, the cream has been skimmed off the top. If recovery from such things wasn't bad enough now they have to try and do it without all the really caring people.

The more I think about this whole thing the more I wonder why it is so adult focused. Sure it's Johnny's EBOR, so if it's HIS, why is he being introduced to HIS EBOR? I would think it would be the other way around. Here one has a brand new Eagle, fully vetted and he has to show up and be introduced to the illustrious panel of who? Scouters? Parents? Good ol' Boys? Most of the people I see on the Boards I've never seen before. Never paid much attention to how the whole thing works, .... maybe I should.

Throw a little water in the soup, cut the bread a little thinner, and announce FHB!, put another bowl and spoon on the table, there's always room for one more.