Stosh

Like the Venture patrols, the New Scout patrols take a bit of a different approach to be effective. If all patrols are forced to be generic regular patrols it is a lot easier for adult administration, but not what BSA recommends. Attrition takes it's toll on the newbies and the old hands in a troop. If they somehow survive the early years they can get a benefit in scouting. If they somehow survive the later years, they usually get Eagle. With the retention percentages the way they are, maybe "somehow surviving" isn't the best approach and a bit more focus on those special needs might benefit from a different focus than one-size-fits-all. I would suggest, however, if one isn't committed to doing it well, I would stick with the generic regular patrols and hope for the best.

a bit misquoted, but if understood would change the way a lot of people think about power, not leadership.

Being forced to follow isn't invoking leadership. If given a choice the boys would head in every different direction. Oh, yeah, that's right, they do whenever they get a chance. One can follow the directions on a duty roster, but creating loyalty and trust in that piece of paper isn't really leadership.

While I have seen both models used, I guess in my neck of the woods I haven't witnessed any slowing down of a scout's career because they were part of a new patrol system. Yes, they did "start" their leadership later in their career, but those that stumbled along in the opening years seemed to figure it out quicker and have more opportunity for leadership than having to wait a year or two to start as one would have to do if they were in a regular patrol with older boys. Whereas BSA promotes NSP, regular and Venture patrols, I find the model quite workable and the boys especially when forced into it like in a new troop start up, get up to speed with extensive leadership skills even before they start in a regular patrol.

An institution that is dumping their assets and cash to protect it from debtors in a bankruptcy proceeding could be kinda sketchy. I guess I would like to have a pretty good distancing of myself from such things. A friend of mine needed his car repaired so he took it down to the repair shop. They parked it inside the bay to be repaired the next day. Oops, the shop went bankrupt. Well my friend just lost his car. These things can be brutal.

This is why I think the idea of a NSP is vital to the smooth operation of the patrol method. For me I find there is a difference between a NEW SCOUT patrol and a NEW scout patrol. I prefer the section option. The patrol is no different than a regular patrol and will become a regular patrol once a year rolls around and the TG goes back to doing what he wants with his patrol. Because they are a NEW patrol a bit of attention is afforded them through orientation. However once that orientation is done, there is no reshuffling of any patrols unless the boys wish to make changes. I have suggested that if boys wish to become members of the older patrols, they spend a bit of time in the new orientation patrols until they get their feet on the ground and then they are free to go where they wish or stay in the patrol if that is what they want. With the new process I am doing with the Webelos II boys getting their AOL and then transitioning over to the troop has the boys already in two patrols with Denners (PL's) in place. My two scouts function as TG's. When the boys cross over into Boy Scouts at the end of May, I'm thinking they will pretty much just stay with the two patrols rather than get all that excited about doing an apple-cart upside-down reorganizational mix up because we don't have any older regular patrols anyway. I'm thinking that with the 6 months of working as a patrol of Webelos II and getting AOL, they will pretty much be regular patrols anyway.

I would also caution evacuating bank assets in that it could appear to the debtors that money is being hidden from bankruptcy disclosure. The courts might wish to know whose fingerprints are on such activities. Even if one "switches CO's" the money still belongs to the original CO that is having the financial difficulties. Hiding assets might not bode well in the local media if it is disclosed that the local Boy Scout troop is walking off with the money that doesn't belong to them. Play it any way one wishes, just don't be surprised what happens when people start playing games with money.

Leadership isn't as complicated as people make it out to be. The problem lies in what we "think" leadership is. Everyone has their own definition of leadership so the subject stays complicated.

Hmmm I wonder how the people of Rome felt when it was sacked by the northern tribes? I wonder how the people of Jerusalem felt in 64 AD when Rome finally settled the Jewish issue? I wonder how the people of Berlin or London felt when the skies filled with bombs? I wonder how the neighboring communities of Hiroshima and Nagasaki felt back in 1945? I wonder how many times history will repeat itself once again when it fails to understand what true leadership is all about and follow blindly the egomaniacs that think they are leaders and convince those around them that they are? I don't know how many do-overs we get..... We had better figure out what leadership is so we can recognize it when we see it. Obviously we haven't been doing so well over the years.

We tend to define leadership in many ways and look to the leader to define it. But has anyone ever considered looking to see if anyone is actually following and why? Expert manipulation, coercion, and fanciful marketing strategies mixed with political brainwashing of half-truths do not define a good leader irregardless of what they may be doing. The only good leader out there is the one people really want to follow, and those are few and far between.

Hmmm, sounds like more adult posturing going on.... I'll not comment on it because I get enough flack the way it is. Our EBOR's are once a month 2nd Tuesday at the council office. It's up to the Scout to make time for it. If Tuesday's bad this month, maybe next month would work better, or the next. Our troop BOR's are held when we get a board together. Right now we are strapped in the fact that our committee fell apart when boys dropped out. Remove the SM, ASM and parents from the formula and we don't have enough people to hold one. At various outings we have requested people from other troops to help out and thus far no one will assist so it's going on about 6 months now waiting for a TF BOR for two boys. The way it's going, they will earn TF, 2nd C and FC all at the same COH. The boy's advancement is not being held up because the adults aren't available. Our next plan is to fill our committee with new parents from the Webelos crossovers and train them first in doing BOR's.

Values and character as the source of what one does is a greater indicator of leadership than simply what one does. If doing nice things for others just for personal gain is not the same things as doing nice things for others because they need it done. Values and character determine the difference.

Wives make great ACM's. With all my work as UC and SM of a new fledgling troop, I asked my wife if she would be interested in working with me on a new Venturing Crew needing advisers. She said, Yes! and I didn't even need a ring.

The opportunity to abuse the adult led SPL top-dog leader, aka SM puppet is all to evident in a lot troops I have been in contact with. The ability of adults to even con themselves into thinking they are doing it right is often quite a joke. I would in those cases be very leery of how valid the comment was that they were really boy-led. In one of my units I am UC for the SM is adamant that they are boy-led, patrol-method, and yet the PL's are elected by their patrols, but every other POR is assigned by the SM including SPL. Every week the agenda is handed to the SPL by the SM and the PLC meetings are run by the SM. So when this SM says his unit is boy-led, patrol-method, everyone smiles nicely and ignores him. While that is a rare exception, to varying degrees there are a ton of units out there that fall into the grey area in between being boy-led and thinking they are boy-led. Right now with my situation, my unit is 100% adult-led. I have 2 scouts (last year's Webelos) and a potential 34 Webelos boys sitting on the fence. I'm working with the 2 boys who are acting DC's/TG's for the Webelos boys and I'm running a Webelos II program with the troop's help. (The two boys are onboard with the adults taking over for 12 months only at the most) After two sessions with the Webelos boys, we have two (NSP) patrols with PL's and TG's/DC's. It's nothing like anything our Council has ever experienced, I'm flying by the seat of my pants trying to pull together this new unit and my DE has asked me to document what I"m doing for an experimental program for other units working on the Webelos/NSP transition process in their units. Hopefully within a year, we'll be back to boy-led. I'm a SM, not a DL. My contract agreement with my Boy Scout boys runs out at that point anyway and they will need to re-take the reins at that point.

You're probably the best person for the job with a background like that. At least you know what to expect. I would suggest you not take it to the professional level, keep it simple and have fun with it. If there's a hiccup, you know how to roll with the punches.

No one is getting tossed under the bus here. Someone didn't read and sign correctly, It was dishonesty, fraud, incompetence, ignorance, laziness, or anyone of a hundred other options other than... they did it correctly and there is no problem. It might have been the parent's fault, the unit leadership's fault, the council's fault, national's fault, but again, it doesn't make any difference. So in order not to perpetuate the problem any further one has to simply go by what is right in the first place otherwise this boy will always be labeled as gotten the Eagle by means other than those prescribed as appropriate by the BSA. With no one on this forum in a position to correct a problem of this magnitude, it's possibly a good idea to just let National figure out what they wish to do with the situation. After all, they are the ones that issue the Eagle rank.

One would not want to see any of this fiasco as a power play by hubby using his UC position to take over the troop as SM. That kind of reputation would not be good. The UC should be the District referee in situations like this, not one of the participants.

Nope. From my post I would not expect anyone to conclude that whether or not an SPL is used is dependent at all for how well it works out for the adults. In all seriousness I, me, myself, don't care one bit whether the troop has an SPL or not. It has no impact on me or my life or my ability to be an adult leader. It is not part of my vision that the troop has one even if they don't have one and still have 6 patrols. The option of an SPL is totally 100% in the working realm of PL's and their combined vision in my units. If they think their lives would be easier with an SPL, they can select one. This change only has a marginal affect on how I address the leadership of the troop. Now I have a youth compatriot to associate with that will make any multiple contact work with the troop down to one major one, the SPL. The SPL does not take top-dog position, he serves at the pleasure of the PL's consensus. He can stay there until the PL's change their mind or the SPL would like to do something differently in the troop. If the PL's would like him to become more formalized as the chair of the PLC, they can direct the SPL to do that, too. If the PL's are having difficulty with a non-functioning QM, they have the resource of the SPL to correct the problem. This model has worked well for me to the point where the parents were upset that the boys were involved too much in the leadership of the troop. My mistake, I thought that was what boy-led was all about. Now in order to answer the question more specifically, NO, "...using or not using the SPL successfully in patrol method troops of "any" size depends on whether or not the idea works for the adults of that program.", but YES to whether or not it works for the YOUTH of that program. Do we seriously try and get ALL the leadership into the hands of the boys, or are we always trying to retain a bit of it to make the lives of the adults a bit easier? One of the reasons why I have lasted 30+ years in scouting is because I maximize the division of leadership among the boys. They do the heavy lifting in the troop and while the parents haven't always been happy with it, the boys are! The rather unique thing about my recent years is that the flexibility and lack of tradition has been a good thing. Each year the "personality" of the troop changes as the different boys running it changes. It's fun to watch.

Nothing wrong with being "mom". It's the most important job in the world in my book! But a time in everyone's life when "mom" needs to step back a bit and gently kick the lovey chick in the butt and out of the nest. It's a terribly painful process for both mom and son, but it's necessary. I once read about how butterflies get out of their cocoons. They have a HUGE battle and struggle to break free of the binds that hold them in, but the struggle forces blood into the wings and makes them functional. Scientists who cut open cocoons to "help" the butterfly get free realized this was doing tremendous harm and the butterfly eventually died within days. You've done the bulk of your "mom" thingy for your son, one now has only one more task, make him independently confident in what HE chooses to do with his life. Don't worry, he'll fly and the sooner the better.

Unless one has a good handle on project management skills this could be a bit overwhelming. Pick a theme that sounds like fun... ask the boys, not other adults. Adults think watching sports and drinking beer is fun. That probably won't work out well for a Webelos-ree. Then sign up with deadline all the activities necessary and staff with a coordinator and enough people. If no coordinator or not enough people sign up, drop the activity, Work with the activity coordinators to make sure they have the resources to do their jobs, do whatever it takes to keep them from becoming frustrated. Have fun with it yourself and share in the good and bad that will naturally result in such an effort. Be sure to thank your people and make sure their spouses are recognized as well.

Agreed! Any time I showed up at an Eagle project as SM/ASM it was to provide rides and only follow directives from the Eagle candidate. I did tend to tell other adults to stay out of the way of the Eagle's directives. Old habits are hard to break.

Thanks for taking on a big task. Support your DL's and they'll support you. It helps with not burning out.

Doesn't sound like hubby is much into the Scout Law thingy much, nor does his efforts of ASSISTING the SM come into play much either. If hubby is UC and ASM, I'm thinking there's a major conflict of interest going on here as well. This has all the makings of a major flare up well up into the District level. It's a game no one is going to win and scouting careers are on the line all the way around. I for one would never take on SM of the troop to replace the current SM. Not much longevity potential here. I wouldn't want the current UC to be anywhere near the subsequent situation either. And to have an ASM on my team that tossed out the last SM would not be on my agenda either. I would recommend as a DE to toss out all the adult leadership and start over from scratch.