Stosh

You need to read "The Peter Principle". It shows how to avoid burnout with "creative incompetence". I use it all the time. When I was working in my last job, I was an administrative assistant to the general manager of a multi-billion dollar international company. Paperwork was my life! Organizational tasks were what I did 8 hours a day. When I went to scouts I didn't want to do paperwork so over time I have convinced all those around me I am terrible at keeping track of paperwork details (creative incompetence). Now I spend all my time working with the boys and someone else handles all the paperwork! It's great. Never had to even ask, in order to make sure it got done and done correctly, they just took it over rather than leave it to me to "mess up".

Of course it applies, it is what I have been promoting all along. This guy hits the nail on the head and explains what taking care of your people with Servant Leadership is all about! Thanks for the link!

The NSP can be a Webelos 3 den if the troop makes it that way. We don't. It's just another patrol made up of new scouts and run by their own leadership with the help of a Troop Guide. Some of the smarter boys recruit a PL from the boys looking to get POR credit on the SLE level requirements. That works well too. When I hear the troops complain that the NSP is really just a Web 3 program, it's because that's the way it was set up by the troop. Take ownership of the problem and fix it instead of complaining and tossing it out.

@@Krampus Until national, councils, and districts actually SEE the problem, they have no initiative to fix anything. The struggling get by processes that are making life miserable for the volunteer doesn't impact their situation until it hits their quota and $$ revenue stream. If the packs started putting the onus of the problem back on where it originates, national, the councils and districts will HAVE to do something about it. Until then they have proven themselves willing to accept the flawed status quo. My DE already knows that at the present time I have only 2 boys for charter renewal coming up. I have identified a few things that I plan on doing, but no guarantees the new troop will fold after only one year. As a result of the "threat"/gauntlet I threw down, the DE has been making more contact with me than in the past 3 years. They have provided what I needed for the AOL/multiple pack program the troop just started with 3 local packs. They have a bin of resource material available with posters and banners to do a recruiting at schools, sporting goods stores, neighborhood activities and they have made arrangements with the middle schools to now expand their major recruiting processes in the middle schools to draw boys directly into Boy Scouts and not just Cub Scouts. Why am I so effective? I'm God's gift to Scouting? Heck no, I just lay out the problem and put the onus on the people who can fix it. My troop's collapse will reopen a major portion of the city to no Boy Scouting and any boy moving up in scouting from Cubs will need to look to other troops for their boy's programs, they might be 6-7 miles away and even in other towns, but that's the reality. How is that any different than telling the Lion's and Tiger's they need to go to other packs because this pack doesn't have the resources to handle them? No difference! That is the problem and when push came to shove, I didn't budge and I got the DE's attention. I'm not only having an affect on getting a major portion of the city covered with a Scout troop, I'm laying the groundwork for some major changes in how this district does it's recruiting. Whereas a few troops might send out a call for resources such as equipment, personnel, etc. I don't. But my DE does it for me. She has already sent out notices that the new troop needs help and no one came forward, She has sent out notices that the new troop could use some used equipment from other units and no one came forward, etc. While it isn't apparent that I'm not the only unit out there facing these problems, the DE is fully aware of the need and is doing over-time working on it. I'm not the only one that is going to benefit from this extra effort on the part of the DE. But if I hadn't dug my heels in and said, sorry, I will let three years of work go down the toilet unless I get a new way of doing things, things would not have changed. So until I figure out the boys aren't worth it anymore, I refuse to accept the premise, "We all know that will never happen." I have proven at least to myself that I don't have to accept that as the norm and infrastructure on the district level around here is changing for the good.

So, @@ianwilkins, with the way people are today, why isn't the program fun, and why isn't it an adventure? Is there anyone out there that can identify that "something/someone" that is sucking the fun out of it? Put processes in place to eliminate those factors and the people won't burn out. If we can't identify the items sucking the fun and adventure out of scouting, how can we fix it?

Thanks for letting me have a bit of fun, but as we all know the flawed system we had isn't going to get any better by adding more and more expectations on everyone involved. I seriously can't see many mom's in a position to take on Lion DL positions. If this is their first kid with others at home, the answer is going to be a NO before one asks. Maybe a dad here or there might be able to step up depending on the work schedule he might have. Maybe there's some foolish single mom out there that wants something nice for her son that she can't provide because of her situation. It would be really stupid to ask that mom to step up and be a Lion DL. BSA needs to think beyond the membership issue and the $$ revenue needed and start looking at providing quality improvements for the struggling programs already in place. A temporary membership fix/boost at the Lion's level will only prove to the parents the program isn't what it was advertised in the first place. People put their children into youth programs for others to maintain. They themselves don't want to run the program, they are paying to have their child in the program. It's like buying a season ticket to the ski hill or a membership in the YMCA. My kid will learn to ski and swim, but I'm not the one teaching it, that's what I'm paying for. You are on the right track with the needs out there to fix up the program. I just don't see BSA doing anything to provide the expertise to get it done well. They simply add a new age level, print new books, sell new materials, take on new members and then let the Packs and the Pack leadership figure out how to survive the influx of new boys. Maybe you and I ought to co-author a Lion Den Leaders' Survival Guide. We could be next Gates or Jobs! NY Times best seller list at least! That might be ridiculous pie-in-the-sky way of looking at this situation, but I'm thinking that if one were to take away the $$'s out from in front of their eyes, BSA might see the same thing.

The easy solution to this whole idea is don't bother having a Tiger or Lion den if no volunteers step forward. There's nothing in the program that says a Pack has to have dens for all ages. I'm sure that if there is a Pack that turns boys away because they don't have leadership it will catch the DE's $$ attention right away.

it is interesting in that all the packs operate differently under different levels of expectation. I have 34 potential new Webelos II boys getting ready to transition into Boy Scouts in my area. 3 different packs..... 1 pack has a monthly pack meeting and a monthly activity, and NO DEN meetings of any sort. I am working on getting these boys their AOL which they wouldn't be getting otherwise because all the other awards were earned by the boy and parent on their own. The second pack has a totally disorganized WDL and is a bit burned out and when we announced the AOL program in the troop, she abdicated immediately. The third pack is running smoothly with a very good WDL and he will join our AOL program if what we have scheduled for the evening is something his boys haven't already done. I think it just boils down to the quality and determination of the individual DL's to see to it that they provide the program as best they can. With this year being the premier of the new program, it's going to take a bit to get everything re-organized because it's "not what they did last year". Don't be fooled by the PR from national on this. It is going to take a bit of focus on the pack and DL's part to work the newbie kinks out of the process.

I think timing is an issue that can be worked around. If the CO is having "financial difficulties" and may be heading towards bankruptcy, one can take some evasive action, but once bankruptcy has been declared, all bets are off.

@ Being new I'm sure one haven't had the time to review the thousands of previous threads on the forum, but it's important that this subject be reviewed on a regular basis. There are a certain percentage of scouters out there that will think this plan of yours is a great idea and in theory would be a great way to have the boys make new friends. But for the most part it is not my opinion that boys joining Scouting are as interested in making new friends as they are hanging out with the old ones. The process I use (just a couple of weeks back to tell the truth) is to put the boys in a room and give them the patrol organizational lecture. 1) You guys pick your own groups, 2) 6-8 members in the group, and 3) come up with a leader for the group. Once you've done that, come out and tell me what's going on. It was interesting that the boys originated out of 2 different Cub Packs, but the groupings, although lopsided, did not run on Pack lines so there was a natural mixing anyway to a certain degree. One of the two leaders was picked by his buddies because they think he will do a good job. He was a bit more quiet and serious than the others. He'll do just fine as a PL. The other group, smaller, kind of the "cast off" boys, picked their leader with the Rock-Paper-Scissor system. From my experience, this group will do just fine too. If adults were to have made the choice of who's in what patrol, what I ended up would NEVER have come up with this result. The groups were lopsided, the in-boys vs. the out-boys, the PL selection was on opposite ends of the spectrum, and it would be judged as never working. So the two patrols played a trivia game for a treat prize. Even with the dynamics the way they were, the boys fought to a 10 to 10 draw and I had to toss in a tie-breaker to get a "winner". I never would have expected that outcome. The reason I will allow this to continue, and will do the same thing the next time I have the opportunity, is because I have learned over the years to trust the strangely illogical mind of the boys to do what they think is best. I have seen it played out over and over again and it works. The adults can do the choosing and it will probably end up with a situation that's okay and maybe even functional, but for some reason I have far less personality conflicts, disruptive behavior, etc. than what I hear being expressed here on the forum. My bubble might be completely out of the circle, but it's working for the boys and that's all I care about.

This subject came up again under the Cub Scout program with the extension of the new Lions program. I didn't want to hijack the thread and it's important enough discuss on it's own. If we can understand the problem, we can deal with it, if we ignore it, inevitably more and more will fall prey to it. So why is it both youth and adults are burning out. I ask the question because I've been around scouting my entire life and haven't figured out how to burn out yet. In the past few years I have taken on a new troop from scratch and the Mrs. and I are pursuing taking on a Venturing Crew due to some interest expressed in a local high school. At 65 I should be pulling back and "retiring" from the hands on, every week, of working with the kids. By the way, my church has inquired into having me work with the youth group there as well, that's another weekly commitment. So, I'm the last one that will be able to identify what makes people burn out in Scouting, or youth work in general, too. Have at it, I'm curious and would like to know. Al I know is that if we can identify the problem, we can deal with it and I'm thinking that as time goes on, we're going to need to address this issue if the program has a chance.

The door swings both way. My step-son went to a prestigious school and got hired by a top tech company. At 2.5 years he lasted longer than anyone else that was hired around the same time and by default became project lead supervisor with a 6 digit salary. He quit last week, no job now but he said, no job was better than putting up with that company. So, count your blessings, the prestigious companies aren't all they're cracked up to be either.

Is it just me or is there something behind the LDS units drawing a bit of suspicion as to being Eagle mills?

Which translation is not necessarily the arbitrary selection of various options for translation, but also, and even more important at times, the context in which it is written. I really don't see many rabbinical scholars flipping coins when it comes to which meaning is intended, but go to further clues from the context of the comment. It is clear that no one knows God's name, so we either leave it blank, use a made up name or we put in a descriptive phrase in it's place. Moses asks "God" what his name is, and "God" answers "I am" (we are dealing with a persona) "who", (rather than that or which), back to "I am". "I shall be who I shall be" works as well, but because it was in the conversation, probably the present tense would be more approopriate.. This would be fine and dandy if all we were concerned about was the "name" of "God" as an identifier, but any rabbinical scholar will be quick to point out that this was not the gist and intent of the message being sent to the reader. Going back to the context of the conversation, Moses wasn't asking about his title, identifier or name as we would assume in many translations he was going after something else in this situation. It's kinda important because it plays itself out in the definition of leadership in a prominent role.

I wouldn't think that a large unit could accommodate a large number of BOR's and SMC's during regular business hours. It would depend on each individual SM how many and when he could handle the demand. It may get to the point where ASM's are used when the boys are doing S2FC and SM focuses on the SLE levels. In a large unit, monthly or bi-mnthly gatherings may be in order or multiple BOR's occurring simultaneously. Ever consider a drive-thru window or a deli-pick a number machine at your meeting place?

Anyone here on the forum from Northern Star Council? I think they have been doing a Lions testing since about 2008. It would be good to get their perspective on this.

Finding 3 warm bodies is pretty difficult for a brand new troop with a committee that struggles as much as the boys.

If that be the justification, then I'm sure we'll burn out our youth as well and the problem will only get worse with the Webelos to Scouting transition. By shifting the years earlier, that must mean the Webelos program is the one in jeopardy? I don't see then where this new program will do anything but encourage abandoning parents leading to abandoning scouts.

it is my understanding that the boy needs to be 6 months at life rank and 6 months POR and the requirement can be met concurrently.

It's a good thing to live in the Diaspora.

One also needs to address the issue beyond the points qwazse mentions. When people make a purchase or contribution to a Boy Scout unit raising money for it's program, there is an underlying assumption that the money is being spent for the whole group, not just a certain individual in that group. In reality, the money is being generated by the CO and that all the assets both tangible and intangible belong to them and they may or may not be aware of how the money is being handled by the scout unit. Then when it comes down to an issue of honesty, whether it be $1 or $1,000 amount shouldn't be a justification argument in the process.. I do not use ISA's in my unit. As a former pastor of a church, the processes that were considered proper by that church body are the same as the finances of my scout unit. For example, the congregation needed a new piano so they raised money in a fund for it. The contributions were carefully recorded and when someone outright donated a new piano, every penny of the piano fund was returned to the various donors so they could do with it as they wished, but the need for the piano was no longer there. We do have a process where there are IPA's (Individual Patrol Accounts) and the boys working together can raise money for their patrol equipment and activities. If they raise $800 for their patrol they can spend it on equipment or each of the 8 boys gets $100 knocked off their summer camp expenses. No individual receives a designated amount based on their fund raising efforts. Otherwise it is defined by our unit as having earned the money and that is a tax issue supported by how honest one wishes to be with the issue.

6 months ago I would have thought that chess would be the last choice most boys would pick for a MB. But at our cabin outing last month the boys sat around and played chess whenever they were not sledding. Seems to be as popular today as it was back when I was a kid 50 years go.

This opportunity to add yet another year to the Cub program imposes on us a rather strange bed-fellow. If Cub Scouts is supposed to be kept simple and made fun, why is everyone burning out? I'm in my 3rd year of starting out a brand new Boy Scout troop, and have a discussion with the DE coming up next week about starting a second Venturing crew for the council. I am operating currently a SM working as a WDL to assimilate 34 new boys into 3 different troops, hopefully getting a substantial part of them for my new troop. I've been at this scouter business now for over 35 years and haven't burned out. What's going on that is "burning out" our people? Address THAT issue and maybe adding the Lions won't be a big deal. It shouldn't be viewed as a problem to figure out how to have more boys have fun. So explain to me why it is.

Next time the CC from the other troop contacts you, make an appointment with her, her SM and you will get your CC on board and the four of you can work out the details of the merger. That should bring this whole thing to an end.

I guess I'm under a different philosophical approach to this whole business. I emphasize and re-emphasize leadership as taking care of one's people. Well, that includes me as well. My SMC are held as soon as it can be arranged. Usually if everything is going as it's supposed to be in the troop, I can do it immediately. If a boy asks for a SMC at the beginning of a meeting, the PL's have their work for the evening all planned out and the ASM can "keep an eye on everythng", I do the SMC right then and there. If a boy asks for a SMC at the end of a meeting, it is up to him to offer a time that would work for him. If he says, his parents are willing to wait (2-deep), he can do it right now, or he may suggest an evening between now and next meeting or maybe a half hour prior to next meeting or if all goes well, next meeting. I for one will do what it takes to take care of the boys. BOR's rely on a lot of other factors than just me personally and require the commitment of 3 people other than me, my ASM's and the boy's parents. That takes a bit of shuffling around to get done. I am frustrated currently because I have two TF boys in need of a BOR and no one to help. If I can't get it pulled together soon, I will be getting the DE involved. I do well with the things I am personally involved in, but can struggle when relying on the assistance of others. The boys are kept in the loop every step of the way and understand what's going on with the lack of support from other adults in the program.