Stosh

If one is merely providing opportunities for the boys and then seeking out expertise for them, the well will never run dry. Trying to do it all by oneself will drain the well rather quickly and provide a poor program in the meantime. If I need someone to provide expertise in carpentry for a bird building project, why would I go and research plans, find wood, round up tools, when I may have an adult or two in the neighborhood that could toss that together in a heartbeat. One also may have never developed an assistant that can watch your back and getting blindsided will take one out of the game rather quickly. Find out what you do best and then let the others around you, parents, assistants, other DL's know your weak areas. Then if another DL is poor in woods tools and you really enjoy whittling, but you're weak in compass and the other DL is a master of maps, why not switch for the night instead of two people doing a lousy job and burning themselves out all at the same time. I flat out tell people in my units that if they want someone who can handle finances well, they had better step up and take on that job. Otherwise they have to settle for what I can eke out. Same for paperwork. I do well working with the boys, if they are good too, I have an assistant, otherwise I might get a good treasurer or secretary. But to take on the jobs of 10 people only means one is going to burn out ten times faster.

Films of the classics of literature that were identified by the BSA during the last century (Every Boy's Library) would do well. The books themselves are far better than what Hollywood could ever produce, but I don't think one is going to get the boys to read anything.

As a MB counselor for a number of different MB's I make a concerted effort every time the MB fairs roll around to improve them by declining any participation in them. I notify my boys of them and then ignore the whole process. If my boys wish to participate they have the opportunity to do so, but they are on their own as it should be. The boys generally attend and pick up something fun for the day so it's not a total waste of time. I think the fair they attended last month was to get the Theater MB.

Even though management, i.e. "getting the job done" is easily taught, and current training seems to be geared towards that with the current curriculum. However, if one were to go back to the original by-laws of the BSA would would find the purpose of the organization would be: "The object of the Boy Scouts of America is to organize the boys of the District of Columbia and elsewhere in the United States, into units, and to teach them or cause them to be taught through duly designated leaders, discipline, patriotism, courage, habits of preservation, and self-control and ability to care for themselves in all exigencies of life." Surely one could make the case for adult-led and no boy leadership training or expectation involved. But to recognize the huge emphasis on the Do a Good Turn Daily to the point where it becomes natural for the boy to constantly "help other people at all times", places no specific training, but a major emphasis of service leadership on the boys in the program. The Slogan and the Oath coupled together becomes the defining separation between the boys who focus solely on themselves and what they can get out of the program and those that internalize the program and thus without specific training begin to understand what helping other people and doing Good Turns in fact has a huge impact on the character and citizenship development of the boy. Maybe it's time that the Scout Spirit requirement for each rank advancement reflect more than just the boy staying out of trouble since the last advancement and serious look at how well the boy is really doing his helping of other people AT ALL TIMES and doing more than just his one Good Turn Daily to get the requirement pencil whipped complete. Without a single lesson in leadership, the level of true service/servant leadership will jump miles ahead overnight because it's built into the program. I can force you to manage a job or a task and measure your success at it, but I can't force you to seriously take care of others or even take care of yourself. That's something that come from deep within the person's psyche and one may never be able to draw that out of some boys even when they have MANAGED to meet all the requirements for the Eagle rank.

None of the early documents of the BSA talked much about youth leadership being taught, the emphasis was more on individual moral character and citizenship.

I was at the museum this winter. The Rockwell Gallery was really great!, the parking lot was good and the rest was okay.

I too take the occasional swipe at WB, not because of WB, but because of where it has gone over the years. I don't think it was a great leadership training program for me, but maybe it is for others. For me the seriousness of scouting seems to have been replace not with adventure, but with fun and games. Whereas BP said scouting should be a game with a purpose, and it should be fun, we have taken that to the extreme and unfortunately the fun game part has remained by the purpose has been lost. Sure, tying knots is good scsoutcraft, but I use those knots more often NOT camping than when I do go camping. The tenting and cooking on a wood fire is fun, but it is also survival training for when the electricity goes out. The confidence to take care of oneself is important, but where leadership comes into play is whether or not the scout has the wherewithal and and confidence to take care of others, too. The me-generation has taken it's toll over the past few decades and getting MY Eagle and MY scouting career and MY prestigious college plans has replaced any need for leadership. We talk the talk about helping OTHER PEOPLE AT ALL TIMES, but focus in on getting YOUR Eagle and insuring YOU have fun and adventure. This is not the leadership path clearly outlined in the Oath and Laws. I don't like using the term Paper Eagles and Parlor Scouts, but if one were to look closely at Scouting today, one would have a difficult time arguing the point. Sure, there are Real Eagles out there, I have seen them and I have had the honor to FOLLOW their leadership. With all the dialog on the forum about # of Eagles being generated each year, it would be far more interesting to know how many Real Eagles are among those numbers. Leadership is lacking in today's society. the parent drama, the committee conflicts, the discipline problems, the Eagle Mills, and the scouting politics are all obvious indicators of the lack of real leadership. One can continue to deny that, or they can start doing something about it and it's going to take a lot more effort to fix it than sit on one's hands and ignore it. One of the reasons why at age 65 I haven't burned out is because I still have a lot of work yet to do in this area. It's not a mission, it's not a passion, it's the Oath and Law. It applies to the adults as much as it does the boys. Lead by example and I take care of my boys.

Some of us have small enough troop to afford the luxury of dropping everything and doing an on-the-spot SMC and if enough parents hung around the meeting might be able to throw together a last minute BOR, but that's not something a larger unit would be able to pull off gracefully. I really get tired of the judgments of the different ways of doing things here on the forum. If everyone were to toss in what they are doing and leave the judgmentalsm out of it, it would make life easier for those needing ideas to pick and choose the different options off the buffet table without having to worry about whether the chicken was better than the fish.

While the fact remains I know very little about the current WB program, I was pretty disappointed in the previous one when it came to leadership. From the way people talk, I'm thinking the new one is not an improvement. When I hear my boys say that they learned more leadership from me than from NYLT, it makes me wonder about that program as well. I don't see much "leadership" emphasized when the duty roster approach to POR's can be done with little or no leadership including the SPL/ASPL as well as the PL/APL teams even though the word leader is part of the title. While I see a lot of what I call organizational management going on, it is pretty much masquerading as leadership. Our boys are statistically measured their success as POR's with SMART goals and observable markers. But as the TED lecture states, that is management authority, not leadership. "You have to listen to me because I'm running the show." is not leadership in any way, shape or form. The problem I have with my boys is that they are identified and given opportunities to develop their leadership and at times they are terrible when it comes to management. But it doesn't matter because those around them tend to pick up the slack. This is why I put out the thread that died off quickly about trying to define the difference between management and leadership.. It would seem that most don't think there is a difference when I see a whole lot of difference, like miles apart difference. I lost a very charismatic scout last summer because the new troop wasn't "meeting his needs". He joined another troop and has "blossomed" into leadership, so they say. He has his ISA filled up after just one popcorn sale that he has Philmont all paid for, but he won't be old enough to go for another year and a half. He's doing great in his Scouting career I've been told, and yet I hear nothing about anyone following him with any inkling of leadership. He is concerned only about his self and his success and NO ONE is following him anywhere. On the other hand, last week I handed a bag of cookies to a Webelos II cub and found my next leader. There will be more, but this guy stands out. Although I was not privy to his selection as Denner, the boys in his den sensed something and reacted accordingly. These are 9 year old boys who can recognize leadership when they see it. Why can't the adults?.

My apologies for misunderstanding we were dealing with two different example threads here. One has to remember that when the organization signed the charter contract it was good for the entire year. If this person was calling the police for trespassing, I would counter sue for breach of contract. Surely there was a lawyer somewhere in the unit's scope of influence that could have shot off a quickly letter stating such. I guess instead of getting upset with such a situation, I would have turned it around and had some fun with it. Once I got done with a pro bono lawyer, the local news reporter would get the scoop.

While it doesn't take a rocket scientist to identify the guy in the corner uncontrollably shaking as having burned out on the last Cub Free-for-all Weekend, what are the steps that need to be taken to keep that from happening? After all as scouters we, too, are called to be leaders and as a CM or a CC what are we doing to keep our people healthy and in the game? 100 years ago, a person could graduate from education, devote an entire lifetime on one job, i.e. farming or in an industry, i.e. mining or manufacturing, retire, and never burn out. Then there came the onset of burnout, and the game became can one make it to retirement before burning out. Some of the old guys struggled to make that happen, but others, in increasing numbers didn't. Today, we are looking at people burning out 2-3 and even 4 times during their lifetime before they have to take an early retirement because either their mind or body just couldn't handle it anymore. So we know the enemy, employment failures, marriage failures, increase in drug usage, including alcohol, suicide, etc. all point to burnout and BSA is no exception. So if the program is to survive, the people are going to have to as well. What are we doing to see to it that it happens for the boys?

While our BOR's tend to "follow the rules" and thus need a bit more attention to scheduling than SMC, I find it very strange that I do the SMC differently than others. Which might be a good thing because SMC's are not defined as being done in a certain way as are BOR's. I have my PL's keep me informed of the boys that are getting close to moving up in rank and as a result I might be the one initiating a SMC with the boy. If formality is required, the scout can work that out with the BOR's. Once I get the heads up from a PL that Little Johnny is getting close, I will find an opening at my convenience to have him get his book and let me see how he's doing with his next rank. Obviously the SMC and BOR are not checked off nor is Scout Spirit requirement. I take a minute or two to address that Scout Spirit issue with the boy. If there are unfinished requirements, I do my little, "what can I do to help you with that?" thingy, then sign off on his SMC and Scout Spirit. Unless the boy is chatty, the process usually only takes 5-10 minutes and the boy doesn't view it as a major 'needs to be scheduled" requirement. I always remind the boy that he will need to do that for the BOR, however. I leave the next couple of steps, finish the requirements and schedule the BOR up to him. I gave him a little reminder, but now the ball's in his court and he has to take the responsibility to follow through. I guess I don't see this as something to get all worked up about. I get my SM thing done, a couple of requirements signed off and the biggy scheduled thing is the BOR and I don't have to worry about that because I'm not involved. It's a bit like the MB blue cards. I sign off on them and forget about it, it's the boys responsibility. I took heat on the forum for it, but I do the same thing for the Eagle projects. The boys have enough hoops to jump through. If it was an adult needing to jump through hoops, I wouldn't stand in his way, why would I do it to a boy?

It's always surprising to see people's reactions when they find out that what's good for the goose is also good for the gander.

I can understand where the suggestion is coming from, but one must realize that the CO is a church with financial difficulties. Yes, the boys raised the money, but the women of the church raise a ton of money as well. Even the church's regular youth group raises money. But the money is the CO's because all of the money from any of these organizations fall under the non-profit status of the CO. So as a former pastor and a current SM, I'm lead to believe that selling off the equipment at a fair market value, returning the parent contributed funds being held by the troop for specific boys' activities, Philmont fund, etc. and then turning all the proceeds over to the struggling CO as they left for the new CO would be the honorable thing to do. Kinda fits in with the Trustworthy, Helpful, thingy as well as "help OTHER people at all times", too. Of course if word got out as to an questionable way of handling the transition it would not bode well for a neighborhood scouting unit to have taken advantage of a struggling church, "There's not much to see in a small town, but what you hear makes up for it." One doesn't want to be part of those kinds of conversations.

Patience used to be a virtue. I don't know if it even exists today.

Welcome to the forum. Just drove through your state last summer and Christmas time. Did you see me waving?

I guess I would have an issue with the "honesty" of such activity. The CO with the $$'s in their eyes is bad enough, but the unit with $ in their eyes spending the money that wasn't theirs and dumping equipment that wasn't theirs would leave a bad taste in my mouth. I guess I would be tempted to do that, but actually doing it would be something else.

@@Krampus Well, they had better get a team on it right away, this is the life-blood of the organization, they're going to hit the point-of-no-return and then there's only the wailing and gnashing of teeth to worry about. Heck, my playing around is making more of a difference than the people at national. Try ANYTHING, it's better than nothing! Send out people to the councils to do listening of what is working and what is not. Quit worrying about the stupid paperwork. The only thing that stuff is going to be good for is the bonfire in the parking lot in Irving on the day the lock the doors.

Where was the ADL all this time? One of the major causes of burn-out is of our own creation. We take on a task with no help and then I'm surprised that some of these people even last 3-5 years before turning belly-up. @@Eagle94-A1 how much difference would it have been in your life to have an ADL? I never have taken on a job in scouting without having an assistant. I teach my boys that a good APL is the PL's right hand man. The hand that makes him successful and watches his back and keeps him in line when he strays. The APL watches out for the PL while the PL watches out for his boys. Maybe taking a lesson from my boys might be helpful in the long run. The reason I teach this simple process to my APL's is not to give them busy work, but to keep a good PL going in the long run. I see too many APL's and ASPL's sitting around waiting for the PL or SPL not to show up to do their work. Sorry, but a good APL makes an excellent SPL when the time comes for changes in that position. The best APL who has taken care of his PL is now the go-to guy that takes care of ALL the PL"s. That's my definition of the SPL position. None of us are Superman or Superwoman. We need to be supported or we're going to burn out.

I for one am never judgmental of other people's tries, Tomorrow's traditions are today's new ideas. I for one would like to have the PL sit in on the BOR's in the same way as the SM sits in on the EBOR's. I don't think in the really early years of Scouting it was commonplace. The "board" of review was more of an SE interview than having any board meeting. I wouldn't have any problem with scouts involved on the BOR's especially the PL of the boy advancing. SPL if the boy is a PL, SM if the boy is the SPL.

The title of the thread uses the term mean or median age and the statistics indicate average. Out of 100 boys if one got eagle at 15 and 99 got it at 17, the mean/median would be 16, but the average would be 16.99+ something. I didn't go well in math in school, but I think I have those numbers correct.

@ If your boys are coming into a troop and have a sizable number of new scouts in the den(s), one can always ask for a Troop Guide to help them get oriented. That's what the TG position is all about. I'd group up the new Webelos boys into groups of 7 if they wish to ask an older scout to be PL or 8 if they wish to run their own patrol, but in either case, ask for a TG, an experienced scout that can walk the newbies through the first 6 months if not first year if need be. Remember, if the boys do not ask for an older scout PL, they still have the TG and SPL helping them out. Otherwise they have their PL, the TG and the SPL helping them get going in the troop. Remember they will also have the Instructors, QM and Scribe there to help them as well so they shouldn't feel like they are left out in the cold.

@@qwazse Take a look at the TED talk video that @ just posted. That video is spot on illustrating the difference between leadership and management that I have been talking about. They are not synonymous! and in many cases opposites! The biblical lesson being taught here with Moses is precisely the point of I am who I am as the Name for "God".

I do believe that it has been posted on the thread that members of the board need to be 21 years old. For those who are sticklers for the rules, it could pose a problem to have another scout in the room.