Stosh

I used to have a troop of 4 patrols.... Scouts decided to try the SPL/PLC thing..... They decided it wasn't necessary, took time away from other more important things the patrols were dong.... Dropped it after a trial run of about 6 months...... If things are running along smoothly and no one's having any problems, and BSA comes along and says you have to do XYX, that means that the first step to adult run has taken place. Adults in the troop going along with it is the second step. It gets worse as time goes on.

The love of money.....

Pencil erasers

According to the "rules" the SPL is to run the troop, but as stated if there is only one patrol then the there is no need for an SPL, Sounds like an adaptation to the rules.....

I don't see it ignoring rules when the boys make the decisions to do what they think is best for their situation. 2 patrols with an SPL PLC ends up always a two against one vote. If the SPL always votes with the patrol he's part of, the other patrol will cause problems and or find other things to do when those troop activities roll around. If the SPL is not part of either patrol, who does he camp with? No one listens to the SPL, who's he in charge of? Troop? Is that all the boys? Then what's the use of the PL's? which deteriorates down to what's the use of the PLC? The more one allows such processes to go on, the more attendance, discipline, organizational confusion will disrupt the patrol method of the troop. I don't ignore the rules, I find that many of the rules in certain situations are counter productive to smooth operation of the troop. If the boys have 3 patrols and they don't think an SPL is necessary because everything is running along smoolthly, why have an SPL election just because some adult rule out of National BSA says to have one? If a troop is operating under a true patrol method operation, what's the purpose of a troop activity?

Yes....I'm only human after all. Stupor smell cheek....

What's wrong with hiking?

A charter is an agreement between BSA and another organization. If organization A (K of C) calls it quits, they own the equipment and bank account. They can decide what happens to that equipment and funds. They decide to donate it all to new Organization B (Catholic Parish) they have every right to do so. It has nothing to do with any other people. The CC hasn't a say-so, neither does anyone on the committee. As a matter of fact, even BSA is limited with what they can do if anything. If the volunteers and boys want to all go off en mass and start their own Organization C, no problem It doesn't mean that Organization A is going to donate anything to the new start up. There are tons of Catholic Parishes out there as CO's and doing a nice job. Before flying off the handle I would check out the decision of Org A and Org B before looking into Org C. The Org C is a difficult road and would need to compete with Org B in the future.

That's what I promote, the consensus of patrol leaders pick their leader, the SPL just like the member of the patrol pick their leader, the PL. The PL's support the work of the patrols, the SPL supports the work of the PL's. I've allowed this process to operate in my troops and end up with effective and functional PL's and if the decide they need the help of the SPL they put one in place. Otherwise the PLC is just that PATROL LEADER COUNCIL, it's not made up of anything other than PL's. I see too many APL"s, TG's, QM's, Scribes, and every Tom, Dick and Harry on the PLC which doesn't do anything but muddy the water, prolong the discussions, load up council votes and other abusive practices. Run lean, run clean....

I've taken flack all along for saying that exact thing. So if a troop is made up of patrols, as an example, is it the patrols that elect the SPL or the individual scouts? A lot of people give great lip service to their troop structures, but in reality run a program far differently. And for all the civics minded nerds out there, NO, THE PEOPLE OF THE U.S. DO NOT ELECT THEIR PRESIDENT, the Electoral College does. We are not a DEMOCRACY, we are a REPRESENTATIVE REPUBLIC. Like anything else, what's written and what one thinks is written are often two different animals.

If the patrol method is not taken seriously in a troop, neither will the names. The names they pick says a lot about the boys doing the picking.

Every parent wants their kids to have a better life than they did. It just depends on how much that particular parent wishes to push, pull, or whatever to make that happen. My daughter was Valedictorian of her class of 400-ish students. She got a full ride scholarship to a prestigious school, dropped out, got married, quit her job when her little one was born, and the Mrs. and I had dinner at her place a couple of nights ago. She rolled around on the floor, giggled, read silly kids books and doted on her daughter for most of the evening. I never pushed, but my Ex, a school teacher herself, did. It took my daughter a while, but she did finally figure out what was really important in life. Too often society tells us the wrong things in life as important. Too often people listen

To say "they are only humans" is another way of saying, we are accepting immediacy as our standard.

In a divorce it's always the kids that get hurt the worst.

It is, it's called campaign funds and PAC's, but they've gotten so good at it they can budget beyond their means and still have the dessert.....

Went to RT tonight, shoulda come home early.

Krampus is correct. 99% of the roundtable training out there centers around what someone else thinks we need to learn and it's a waste of time. I go to all roundtables but have been known to leave when the breakouts occur. I really don't want to waste anymore time than I have to. CAUTION: Graphic example, mature audiences only! If some teacher in a school thinks it's important for all her students to be able to track a budget and expenses for a a month because their future success in life is dependent on it, and one kid in the back of the class stands up and says, "Hey, Teach, with all due respect if you want to teach us something that will help us with our future lives, in our neighborhood you had better be teaching us how to load, shoot, clean and store a .45 caliber semi-automatic handgun. Well, it'll never happen because we teach only that which WE think is important, Like I said at most roundtables, I leave early.

Ooooh, I can see it now, In a theater near you the gripping drama of 8 Angry Boys! (How totally un-American according to some... )

You got it. and in my patrols this process can happen any time they decide it's needed. If the guy they (s)elect as PL isn't doing the job, they sit down and figure out who can. If some kid misses his POR because he wasn't paying attention and doing his job, he's got no one to blame but himself. If you're doing a bang up job, I seriously doubt if the patrol's going to yank your POR. Krampus' selection process of a monarcy of passing the baton is also another option A lot of scouts operate in political climates such as that and who knows, for small groups that might be the best option. While it's been a few years since I was present when an SPL was used, the selection of that position was similar to the patrol selection process. The PL's selected the SPL. After all this person was the #1 support person with the best qualifications to help the PL's with their jobs. It made sense and worked just fine. Only once was a non-APL selected as the SPL. The APL's were already doing the job of assisting and helping the PL's so the best one of the bunch was singled out and had to then support ALL the PL's not just one in his patrol. The only other person to be SPL was a PL that stepped down from his PL position so another member in his patrol could get a chance at a POR. The patrol thought this was fine and the PL's thought it was fine and it worked just as well as picking from the APL's. The other "troop" positions were selected like the SPL. All the QM's got together and selected the guy they wanted to work with when getting the gear, etc. NSP could pick any scout in the troop to be their TG and if that boy wasn't working out they could pick someone else. The only boys that had to pass any adult "test/vetting" was the DC's who needed to convince the DL they were contributing to the welfare of the den. Some of the positions were just "taken on" out of the blue and if no one had an issue with it, no problem. One boy wanted to be Chaplain's Aide, no one had a problem with it and he served very nicely for 4 years. He finally aged out and that was that. It's really quite interesting how things work out when the adults don't get in there and start messing with setting up a system for the boys. Leave them alone, they do nicely all by themselves.

I am at a point where I really do not know what to do. I feel like I do not know who in my council to talk to, to get help. The CO is pushing us away. The CC is making more issues. So now with all the back story, here are my questions. First of all @, my apologies up front if my comments sound a bit harsh. Please accept them in the intent to help that they are given. Can a pack drop their CO and move to another one? Yes, absolutely, no problem, find a new CO, have them sign the charter when the recharter comes around. Just walk away from the old CO, turn in all the pack equipment and turn over the packs funds and start all over again from scratch. The pack did it once when they started up before,, they can do it again. As a matter of fact they can do it as many times as they want. If that doesn't sound like something one would want to do, then a new strategy might be in order. Can something be done about a CO that refuses to assist the pack with a place to meet and causes more issues than being helpful? Absolutely not. If you can't meet at time(s) they have offered then they have met their requirements of the agreement. I was the CA of a crew for 15 years and the CO NEVER ONCE provide us a place to meet. As a matter of fact the CO had to rent a space each month for their meeting. They offered us no place to store anything either. The CO had no place to store their equipment except in their member's garages, we did the same thing. Could we have pushed the issue? Yep, we could have disbanded the crew at any time, turned over what equipment we did have and give them the bank book. We chose other options to make it work for the guys and gals in the crew. Should I listen to my wife and leave the pack with one more year left to go for my son in the pack? Let your boy stay in the pack, You can leave at any time, you are a volunteer. Chances are, your boy knows nothing about the Adult Drama Play being carried out in the background. He's probably having fun and hanging with his buddies. If the issue is causing you problems, then I would suggest, dropping off your boy, then take the Mrs. for a Date Night of coffee and pastries at the nearby bakery and pick up your boy when it's all over. Thousands of parents around the country are doing similar things and packs are still running full steam ahead. I am sorry for the long post and all the questions, but I really just don't know what to do. Sorry David14, but what you express concerns about are typical for any troop or pack out there today. If you spill coffee on the carpet and it costs $200 to clean. Just have the CO send you the bill. It sounded like the SM and other church leaders were aware of the spot, let them run some interference. Let them know where to send the bill, then forget about it until it arrives. I may never show up and you won't have lost any sleep over it. It's hard being a leader in a unit because people can take things too personal. To avoid that feeling, just remember, everything you are doing is for the boys, not you. It helps a lot, been there, done that.

Because in America if you don't like the candidate that gets elected, you can deride them, make fun of them, ignore them, and a number of other things that BSA would frown upon. You don't like the way things are going? Move to another country. Businesses are doing it by the thousands. Individual protected off-shore bank accounts are as American as apple pie. If this is the goal of elections in one's troop, then feel free to keep handing out little pieces of paper. Used to be schools were run by townships, villages communities, and cities. Now they are run by Washington. Take a poll sometime and see how that's working out for you. Then pick up your voucher so you can send you kid to a real school, run by the people in your neighborhood. Nope, I want my PL's selected by the boys in the patrols. just like a township supervisor is vetted by his neighbors. Then ask yourself when did you ever get a ballot letting you vote for the national president of the BSA. The BSA teaches a system of leader selection they don't even use. It's a great lesson to teach civics and how the government is supposed to work. But if one wants effective, functional patrol management and leadership, just let the boys work it out on their own. For a long time I could never figure out why my boys didn't seem to generate the problems others were experiencing. Maybe it's because the win or lose, success or failure of the patrol method lies 100% in the hands of the boys in the patrol. With that much pressure placed on them to find effective leadership, they tend to pick the best scouts for the job based on their records, not on their promises or POR needs. If one is teaching boys how to cope with poor leadership and ineffective management, please disregard my comments and carry on with what you're doing.

Or visiting the Shrink?

By definition the nations of the Middle East, like Iran, and Israel are Asian along with India and parts of Russia, but these people are seldom referred to as Oriental Those who were historically connected to the "Far East" were referred to as Oriental, meaning Eastern. Occidental were everyone else meaning Western. The people of Israel are Asians as well as Occidentals.