Stosh

Would these girls be covered by any insurance or legal protection if they were injured? Also what about leader liability? male leaders female girls, Until some policy mandates are established, I would be kinda edgy about having them around on a regular basis.

I would think the grade is indicative of the relevancy to the scout's age appropriate understanding, not a designation of their grade in school. It would be rather pointless to have a 1-2 grade approach to the subject for a 5-6 grade boy. I'm having problems with boys not having access to the internet at these ages. That's another whole ballgame out there being played appropriately by concerned and informed parents.

@@zuzy Don't worry zuzy, the three of us are all in agreement with what you are doing with your son's situation. There's nothing wrong with taking an interest in your boy's success in life, You can't do it for him, but as you support him in his growth and development, you might want to consider some of the things we have said to pass along to him. If anything seems to be different between us, it is not that we disagree with each other's comments, it just means we all have different options for you to consider. Having an arsenal of options is a lot more productive for you than just spewing out a one-size-fits-all. It's up to you to do what's best for your family.

I hope my legacy for my boys is not how great a SM I was, but how well I helped them become great leaders.... and how well they were able to pass that knowledge along to others.

I, as well, don't see the problem with co-ed programs. I've worked with at-risk youth, church youth groups and community youth groups and haven't had any problems. With that being said, I have also worked with Scouts for 35+ years as well. I do see a lot of developmental advantages of same-sex groupings. If Scouts goes co-ed along with the crowd, that dynamic will disappear. It has to a certain extent with the co-ed Exploring program, but know with the co-ed Venturing program BSA has doubled down on the problem. I also noticed the impact on the program with the introduction of female SM's. Yeah, yeah, I'll hear about it, but the dynamics change when a child interacts with a mom than with a dad. So when these changes eventually occur and females join in for a super boy oriented program, don't be surprised in a very short time, those dynamics will take on the same issues facing Exploring, Venturing, Church Youth, Boy/Girls Club, 4-H YMCA now that it is just the Y with men christian association removed, etc. The gals will be able to choose with the Heritage Girls and GS/USA, but the boys' options will disappear into the same-old, same-old youth program everyone else is running, with trees. But even that is beginning to be re-invaded with some of these nature conservancy groups out there reaching out to young people.

Pick a scout with potential and train him up to be an excellent ASPL, right-hand man to the SPL. One who will eventually take over and do an even better job than you. Oh, by the way, isn't this the same process we as adults use? We scan over the parents to see the best potential out there, take them on as ASM with the hope some day they will make a great SM?

Have SPL son start researching how a troop is supposed to be run. He needs to know what direction to head, listening to the SM is only going to make things worse. If your son wants to stand on his own two feet on solid ground, he better know what solid ground is. There's plenty of info out there on the internet for him to learn. I do believe the ASPL is appointed along with all the other troop positions. It's a good lesson in management to know the game that's played so that one can know where it is he is supposed to be leading to.

I hope this is a good example for everyone on the forum how distructive adult controlled troops can be for the boys. Zuzy: if the ASPL is an appointed Yes-Man to the SM, then your boy can appoint his own. That is supposed to be a leadership team not an adversarial relationship of a subordinate spying for the SM.

I do believe the ASPL is appointed by the SPL. Maybe you din't have one because you didn't appoint one. In Zuzy's case, I would suggest he pick his staunchest ally in the group and make him ASPL and the two of them turn that troop around. Zuzy's boy doesn't HAVE TO do it alone, and neither did you.

I have the same concerns as Ken on this one. UC hubby-dad vs. SM is not going to work out well for the SM/Son team your boy is up against. Your husband needs to find a different unit to be assigned to or your boy needs a new troop if your husband decides he doesn't want to move. I wouldn't tell the SM about the medical problems of your son, as long as your son is functioning in the manner he is, it's none of his business and could potentially be something he could use against your son down the road if things don't work out well. I would suggest to your son to get a functional ASPL as soon as possible. He needs a scout in his court that will work with him. Too many SPL's get hung out to dry by adults and if there's a problem between SM and SPL, it would work better if it was between SM and SPL/ASPL team. After all I'm thinking the SM/Son combo do discuss the troop when your son is not around. As far as the milk-toast issue, your son doesn't need to defend himself against distracters, all he needs do is lead the troop. There is always the issue which in your case has not been resolved. Who's running the show? The SM or the SPL. It's a question your son might wish to ask the SM. If he says he runs the show, then I would recommend he step down as SPL and do a POR that isn't in the cross-hairs. I"m sure that's what the SM wants anyway, to put his own son in that spot. That's a battle your son doesn't need to fight to be a good scout. Sounds like politics on the adult level have filtered down to interfering with the work of the boys. If your boy decides to step down, he doesn't do so by announcing to his SM, but his reason for stepping down explained in writing to COR, CC and SM at the same time. It's time that those people know how much their political agendas are disrupting the operation of the troop.

It must be important it is also one of the requirements for Arrow of Light.

Well, some of them manage to get up in the morning. That has to count for something.... All I'm saying is that I tend to give the boys a lot more credit than a lot of my peers. By the time these kids get to 11-12 years of age, they pretty much have to potential to figure out basic management skills, leadership just makes it easier if they choose to go that route. I still have a lot of boys that are only interested in themselves and their Eagle, so it's not universal. I have had boys who could not come up with anyone in the troop to help with their Eagle projects and had to turn to church and school friends to get some help. It was kinda sad really. One can't reach them all.

Nice platitudes... what's there to agree upon if BSA is going to simply take the money and assets anyway? There's got to be an honesty clause in there somewhere.... Oh, yes, the Scout Law. I sure wouldn't be a part of that process should my unit shut down.

Welcome to the forum, thanks for your comments, I have a daughter that was exactly the same way.

Funds raised and assets acquired under a CO's tax exempt status belongs to that organization. If a unit is using BSA's tax ID and exempt status, then everything belongs to the BSA. In either case it does not belong to the "unit" any more than money raised for a church's ministry belongs to the person doing the fund raising.

New PL, He's see his parents organize things, maybe an older brother or sister. He's figured out organizational skills at school. If he's played sports, he's figured out how the game is organized and how the coaches go about organizing practices and the logistics of getting everyone to the game. If this kid is that void of management skills, how in the world did his patrol ever elect him PL and expect that things would be okay? I'm thinking the illustration is a wee bit far fetched. After all, at least it's been my experience, that boys that get selected for PL usually have been in the patrol a while and have seen what other PL's have done to stay there and what others have done to be removed, so don't do those things. PL's don't start out in a vacuum. Of course one also has to remember that good servant leadership relies on being a good follower and every time the new PL pauses, someone else says, "What can I do to help" (like maybe a #1 rated APL?????) then the jobs get done and leadership is basically shared among everyone in the patrol. At one time or another someone is always picking up and leading. It's called teamwork. I've seen it on occasion and it's kinda awesome. If my boys figured it out and would do that all the time everywhere, I'd be out of a job, but then that's my #1 goal. For me Leadership is what makes the task flow effectively, it may be anyone of 8 boys in the patrol doing that at any given time, not just dumped on one scout, i.e. the PL. The successful PL is surrounded by strong leadership patrol members.

I don't use it so I can't answer that question.

@@Krampus, here's were the rub comes. I distinguish between management and leadership, the two can run divergent in two different directions or they can run smoothly simultaneously. What I think is being suggested in the post is that building management skills produces good qualitative measurements and of course if a boy is going to be good at that he's going to need a ton of instruction and a whole big bag of tricks to pull it off. Sure the boy can do the velvet glove Theory Y approach to management or they can use the hard core "do it or else" approach of Theory X. Makes no never mind, how the participants in the group IF ANY EVEN EXIST feel is of no consequence. Get the job done your POSITION is to be RESPONSIBLE for getting the work (or task) done. We can measure, yes the task is done or no it isn't. The problem lies in the people involved in accomplishing the task, or better yet there IS NO task! at the moment. Where is the management requirements then? Let's look at @@qwazse's comment about the size of the troop. It is suggested that with a smaller troop situational leadership can be applied better than the "responsibility (management) emphasis. Sure there is a lot more to organize, but if one is doing situational leadership, each part of that responsibility is held together with more leadership opportunities to keep people in the game and not focus on just one person's management ability. Huge trail cutting project. Huge troop, one SPL.who decides he's NOT going to "run the troop" on this one. Hasn't the time or energy, so he turns to his PL"s and said, I"m in over my head. Who can mark out the trail for me. PL says, my patrol can do that. Okay I need someone to cut the trail, PL 2 say's he can do that.. I need someone to rake brush together, PL 3 - no problem got that covered. QM says, Hey, I can't handle all the equipment for this project. PL 4 says he'll help QM with the equipment. PL 5 says they'll get his boys together to haul out brush and PL 6 says he'll bundle it up and get it on the truck, PL 7 says, it's going to be a hot day, we'll constantly do water runs and make sure everyone stays on their feet. PL 8 doesn't have a job so he says, He's going to stick with the SPL and be his runners and gofers and do whatever job pops up that needs an extra hand. SPL goes out to PL 1 to see how they are doing. PL says he's short 2 compasses, PL 8 standing next to SPL says, Two of his boys will find QM and get them. and this keeps up all day long. Now the project gets done, but WHO ran the show? Who lead this project? PL 1 managed a small task of setting the trail, PL 2 and his boys cut brush, etc. PL 7 ran around and made sure everyone was hydrated and healthy. PL 8 ran his boys all over the place to make sure every little putsy job got address. Sure, they're getting the management job done. Everyone is taking a piece of it on their own and leading it as a part of a greater whole. Even the waterboys and the gofers were important and it boiled down to maybe just one or two boys taking care of someone's empty canteen kept the project rolling alone smoothly. So what's PL 1 leading? A boy that works the compass who is working with the boy who has the map, who's directing and helping a third boy mark the trail correctly on the right side of the trail, and another boy on the left and another boy making sure they have enough tape to mark it Did the SPL need to tell Little Johnny where to put the orange markers on the right side of the trail? Or does he rely on the leadership ability of others to work with him and make sure that the sub-leader is getting everything he needs (support) to do his small part of the project. And when one comes right down to it, isn't Little Johnny constantly making decisions and relaying back information to the PL that maybe this 4' diameter tree might be a bit big for the machete crowd and someone needs to address the issue further before proceeding? At one time or another if everyone is taking care of more than just what they're told to do, the situational leadership develops along the way. If the goal is just to get the job done in smooth management of one or two people, no one in the rest of the group ever has to figure out how to contribute leadership and will rely on just what to be told to do next. Like I said in other posts, I don't use duty rosters, my boys have evolved beyond that and rely on their leadership skills to handle tasks that come along. So then the question becomes which comes first Management skill development or Leadership skill development. I happen to believe that if one were to teach real leadership, management will figure itself out along the way. If one were to start with management first and struggle with trying to motivate, discipline, and constantly running around bribing others to do their job, it could take a while to ever get to the end of the project let alone develop any real leadership skills when no one is following. A little rule of thumb I use: If the job is getting done, it makes for a good manager, but if he ends up doing the job himself because no one will help, he's probably got a leadership problem.

Quantifiable measurements are management tools for job performance, not any indicator of leadership. POR's are positions which are to be filled for being responsible for a task within the troop. They require no leadership. Authoritative management will get the job done. BSA can toss out all the management verbiage they want under the title of leadership, but it doesn't make it leadership. An SPL can do a fantastic job of getting the boys organized, the jobs done, the place immaculate, things running smoothly like a well oiled machined, but if in the process he has pi$$ed everyone in the troop off, it doesn't say much for his leadership.

@@qwazse, from my spot in the back of the room, I don't notice any boys actually teaching leadership other than by example. I do have to admit that I once was asked to help with the SM part when my boys were wanting the GBB leadership training program taught in the troop. We did follow the book on that one and I was very much hands on with it. I was asked to leave that troop and the adults took over the operation of the troop. We were at about half-way through the lessons, so I don't know if the boys ever finished the training. The boys I have now are too young for the organized classes, but do well with helping the Webelos program as TG/DC's type role. Normally the boys break immediately into patrol activities rather than any troop training/education. The parts of the troop meeting that are together are opening and closing flags, and the game time activity.

I generally don't work from printed materials, presentation materials or role-playing models. My involvement in the boys tend to be quite minimal and are focused more on boys asking direction questions of me. Occasionally I'll get asked my personal opinion and at other times they are seeking other options for some issue they are dealing with. None of those things really work out well if the answer given is "Go read the book."

My former troop in which I was ASM,actually sold raffle tickets for the CO who was raffling off 3 different hunting guns....

@@Sentinel947, I don't think anyone is complaining about whether the patrol method is being taught or how it's being taught, but instead how it is being implemented. The method of breaking the troop into smaller manageable groups is no big deal. I have seen this happen in a lot of adult managed/controlled troops. This organizational management of the patrol method makes a good working tool for adults to divide and conquer large numbers of boys, dealing instead with small units that can easily be supervised. This of course does nothing to translate any dynamics of leadership in the organization's functioning. If the troop is boy controlled, the smaller units make it very easy for fledgling managers to handle the tasks which is good. One doesn't want to overwhelm the boys until they have sufficient skill to maintain order. This seems to be the problem I have seen as UC where the SPL is either overwhelmed by trying to "run the troop" or has basically nothing to do because the PL's are running the patrols. The SPL becomes the "chairman of the PLC and only interferes outside that responsibility. If the troop officers are functional, communications and finances are handled by the scribe. equipment by the QM, and in a moderate sized troop, other POR's are pretty much "optional" for most troops. These outside positions really don't function within the patrol method anyway. So, regardless of the patrol method organizational structure, how that structure is authorized to function is the part that is often not addressed. The patrol method is implemented, the organization clearly defined and yet the authority of operation remains in the parent/child, teacher/student, or clergy/lay dynamics, the normal development of maturing boys and the emerging independence will be reflected in the troop in the same dynamics as those in family functionality problems, school, discipline problems and drop out rates, and young people leaving the church only to return later in life as they work out the changes in relationships. Knowing this and modifying, not the organization management of the patrol method, but altering the authority model differently than home, school and church, a lot of those disruptive behaviors and problems can be avoided. As @@Eagle94-A1 mentions in his post, the SPL being elected by the PL's is not BSA recommended nowadays, but it surely what I have seen happen when the boys themselves are allowed to make the rules on how they want their troop to be run. I was also surprised that the candidates were taken from a pool of former PL's and current APL's. An APL won. So, I don't think anyone is denying the importance of a patrol method, but there seems to be a difference of opinion when it comes to implementation and flow of authority in the various models. By the way Eagle94-A1, the NSP vs.mixed patrol when left alone tend to favor a "layering" effect where the ages in the "mixed" patrols really aren't as mixed as many adults would like them to be. High school kids hang with high school kids, same for middle school, and where 6th grade is still elementary, they get left out in the cold unless some older boy wants POR credit. I don't use NSP, but I allow the boys to and the new guys coming in tend to hang together for a while and then maybe if they want to will on their own make membership changes in the patrol.s, blending them a bit more.

I sure wish that was the case around here. Already I have heard two or three requests for troops to line up their elections and with no one signing up, (the requests were made by adults to adults) it makes one wonder how important, hard won, scout model, the sash means today to the boys. It might mean a hard won honor to a lot of people, but not to all. Two of the better Eagle scouts that have come through my troops were not Arrowmen.

OA has not been a presence at RT for many years in our council. Any OA announcements pertaining to elections, etc. are made by adults and DE. As far as I know the OA has not made any contact with my troops ever. One boy did make the effort to contact the OA as the troop OA Representative, lined up an election, the OA member showed up in blue jeans and high school sweatshirt and was asked to come back when he found his uniform, never came back. The last time I saw an OA call out was at summer camp in a different council. The boys in our area seem to be quite indifferent to the program.