Stosh

Maybe put on OA regalia and use an arrow to tap out "knight" the boys into the tribe of Good Scouts. I'm sure that Someone will have something to say about that and then one can turn it over to the Lodge to sort out.

Maybe if the unit had a real Historian rather than someone who just wore the patch for POR credit, one would have a nice record of who all those people were that made that troop what it is today. Just thinkin'

I wonder how many other great scouts Scouting produced that don't get any recognition? I'm thinking maybe that might be an even bigger number.

If someone doesn't stand for something, they'll fall for anything. A Scout is Brave. According to the logic, then, whenever anyone encounters a intolerant bully, they are to turn the other cheek and give in. Do I have that correct? Ya don't have ta ding me on this, I'm only asking.....

I'm heading down to the SE's office this afternoon, the OA ceremony of shooting a flaming arrow runs against my sensibilities. Since when is it proper to allow the boys access to assault weapons for their ceremonies? I've watched enough Hollywood movies to know the pioneer people were shot with arrows. What is it we are teaching our impressionable young boys nowadays? Oh the inhumanity! I feel better now. On the other hand a sword by definition never has been an assault weapon, If it was to be used for any other purpose other than ceremonial, identification of rank or as a visual command aid on the field, it could as a last resort be used as a self defense weapon. If "someone" complained to the CM, that's between this unknown whiner and the CM. If that "someone" is ever known one might be able to discuss it with them. However, I find more often than not, this "someone" is really just an excuse to reflect blame off into the unknown rather than deal with the issue honestly. Whenever I find myself in this situation where "someone" complained to the person bringing up the subject to me, I respond, "Thanks for the heads up and getting the issue resolved. If they wish to address the issue further they can talk to me directly, I'm sure they have nothing to hide." I'm guessing about 10% of the time the person will make themselves know. The other 90% remain strangely silent on these "critical" issues. I'd just keep doing what your doing, sounds like a neat idea for the boys.

As a person who collects scouting memorabilia I can assure you that the price of anything is solely dependent upon what someone is willing to pay for it I have a complete collection of the BSA's Every Boy's Library, and at least one copy of every book written by Percy Keese Fitzhugh, . While they were very popular in the early years of scouting, most people have never heard of them, including those at the BSA National Museum. Yet the legacy of these items is still around today. This is where Pee Wee Harris got his start. Pee Wee's buddy Roy also has a series of books as well. Their buddy Tom Slade had a real movie about him produced back in the Silent Film era and the expression Parlor Scout originates from the Westy Martin series. They are a treasure trove of information pertaining to the early years of Scouting in America. Until some one offers me $$ they are worth nothing.

Okay, if a company donates to the scouts under the CO's EIN and it's a non-profit. Not a problem Company gets a tax deduction. If a company donates to the scouts under the CO's EIN and it is a for profit, then the company can't get a deduction and the scouts count that as 100% income taxable profit. Petty cash amounts here, I know, but what is the lesson we pass on with our boys? A bit of fuzzy logic going on here. At what dollar value does it become questionably unethical. Maybe $1,000? $100? $10? $1? or maybe just a penny. It kinda reflects on the whole issue of a scout's honesty. The whole issue is more than just paying sales taxes on purchases. A non-profit CO can take in income without owing income tax, a for profit CO can't And as I posted before when a scout unit buys at a local store a non-profit CO unit doesn't pay sales tax, but a for profit CO unit does, and if over the internet will need to pay use tax instead. BSA does not make any of this clear in any of it's literature that I have seen. I think they are riding on ethical thin ice and as long as no one gets caught, it's okay. Not a lesson I want my boys to learn.

As a unit of a non-profit, one does not pay sales/use tax when making a purchase or when making a sale to another. They do not pay any income tax either on the proceeds coming into the non-profit. However, if the CO is not a non-profit, such as a hardware store and there is no tax exempt status in the picture, do they have to pay sales/use tax, charge sales tax on items sold and report all net income as taxable? This might also apply to the parental groupings that CO units and do not bother to process any non-profit status with the government. Are they then personally responsible for the taxation issues. And one other thing @@Krampus, just because one does not pay SALES tax on items purchased over the internet does not mean anyone who normally would have paid sales tax isn't due to pay state USE tax instead. Just as a matter of ethical considerations one must realize that in most taxing jurisdictions, when a sale/purchase is made the company is responsible for the collection of sales tax on that transaction. If the transaction occurs over the internet where taxing jurisdiction is questionable and/or California can't force a New York company to collect it's taxes, the obligation to pay the said taxes for that transaction falls on the buyer. In my state there is a line on the income tax form that leaves a place to declare taxes due on purchased items that are USED in the state that were not taxed elsewhere. The rate of tax is the same as the state's sales tax and if for example, Delaware has not sales tax, but if someone from Wisconsin makes a purchase from that Delaware company they still owe Wisconsin use tax. My wife is a senior tax accountant responsible for audits in a multi-billion dollar international company and when it comes to our personal income taxes, that line on the income tax return form is always filled. Contrary to popular when a company is saying that because they are from out of state, you do not owe sales tax, it is true. They are not responsible for collecting sales taxes for another state. But what they don't tell you is that tax obligation is now your responsibility to pay.... have nice day.

I'm not a tax lawyer, but maybe there's someone out there that can clarify this for me. A CO with a tax-exempt status, is exempt from paying income tax, but what about sales tax on some of their operations. I have seen churches running coffee shops within their churches where the coffee is sold at a price and not "free" pending a good-will offering. Does that coffee shop operation need to be charging sales tax? The profits of the coffee shop would be tax exempt? I don't see this as a charitable fund raiser, but maybe the case could be made. They are however selling a product. So now we have the boys "raising money" for their trips under the tax exempt status of a CO. Is this a ministry when the CO only views the unit as someone who uses the facilities rent free or doesn't allow the unit access to the tax-exempt ID? What if a local hardware store is the CO, do the boys need to be charging sales tax and paying income tax just like the hardware store does? With some of these units having thousands of dollars spirited away, how long does one think it will take to hit the IRS and state tax departments' radar?

A son in first grade...

How do you figure it opposes the principle of a Scout is Thrifty. Used to be an advancement requirement that a scout opens a bank account and puts in money to save. He earns his own way on his own by his own effort. If he is raising money for an activity under a charity cause, he isn't earning it with his efforts. I spaded over gardens, raked lawns mowed lawns, shoveled walks, washed and vacuumed cars for people in the neighborhood. I had money for my uniform (complete uniform) camp equipment, and trips and I paid 100% of it out of my own money. My parents told me that if I was going to be in scouts they couldn't afford to help out (they really couldn't). Eventually I got a job with paper route and washed windows at the local library. I worked my way through scouting and I HATE TO GO OUT AND SELL STUPID FIRE EXTINGUISHERS AND HOME FIRST AID KITS TO PEOPLE WHO DON"T WANT THEM!!! Yes, I used my outside voice on that one. And when all was said and done I learned to do my own taxes and submit my earnings to the IRS even if I didn't make the minimum amount to claim. IRS was till told how much I earned. We have a MB that is supposed to cover this issue, but it means getting up off one's butt and going out and making sure that you're not going to be a burden on your buddies. That's not a principle applied by most youth today. ISA's teach the boys about the me, me, me of troop finances. I don't play that game.

Scout units aren't exclusively the only ones that are walking that slippery slope. None of the churches I have been involved with have operated as such. In my clergy years, the dialog among the clergy never addressed this directly so I can't say one way or the other how many churches might be following this practice. All the major trips of my youth groups had the raised money equally divided among the trip participants regardless of who raised how much. It reminds me of my sister's situation in high school. She knew she wasn't going on the band trip because she was in the second band. But she still went out and raised money, covered a spot on the booth when selling things at the game's concessions, went door to door... basically did as much if not more than the others in the group. My parents got a call at 1:30 in the morning from the band director. He said a kid got sick and couldn't go. If my sister could be ready to go for a week's trip in 30 minutes and be at the school before the bus leaves she can go. She made it. She couldn't get ready for school in the morning in 30 minutes, but this she did. She was the only freshman on the bus. Servant leadership is a marvelous thing.

Why not be honest about it and then not call it BOY Scouts of America. For me, the use of the Boy Scouts of America branding is what the co-ed group wants. @[member="maryread" alluded to this when the idea of another group wouldn't have the prestige of BSA and the 100+ year reputation it has garnered. For me, personally, I would find it a lot easier to hijack someone else's reputation than try it on my own. If it works, fine, if it doesn't, one at least gets some free press out of it. Like I said, starting a co-ed outdoor youth ministry is a lot easier for the kids in my area than trying to take on the whole of the BSA to get a Pack charter with the BSA logo on it. I can provide exactly the same program for them as I now do for my cub aged counterparts..

Growing up I had a bad experience in Boy Scouts. The unit was very poorly run. I was an avid camper long before I was even in scouting. I never got beyond 2nd class after 4 years. What I decided to do as an adult was do scouting right for the boys so that they wouldn't have to endure the problems I did. In your case, After 35+ years of promoting Boy-led, Patrol-method, I still see units out there that ignore the most basic principles of BSA and end up running units like I had as a youth. I may not save the world, but for the boys that come through the units I work with, at least they have the opportunity that I didn't have as a kid. it sounds like you are trying to do the same thing. It will work and you will champion it for others along the way. You may end up saving the world after all.

That's the slippery slope part I avoid due to my personal ethics. Using a tax exempt status to raise money for oneself doesn't bode well with me. I prefer the A Scout is Thrifty, meaning he earns his own money and pays his way.... and his taxes

She's mine too. There's pros and cons for working with BSA and working without BSA. Whenever I have something like your situation where you might feel co-ed is important for your kids, then just focus on them. Don't try to save the world, just one little bit to start and see where it goes. BP did it that way. I should also add her children? One's an MD in residency right now, another holds a doctorate in bio-mechanical and does research (she also qualified last weekend for the Boston Marathon), another is international business consultant and the boy is an electrical-mechanical engineering currently in the cell phone business. Wanna see pictures of my 3 FEMALE granddaughters!

No, for AOL the requirements are just about verbatim with the Scout/Tenderfoot requirements. It's like taking adult training to be a WDL then turning around and taking the same training for SM/ASM. Adults wouldn't put up with it, but we now expect it for the boys. Whereas the old Scout rank did not require memorization of the Law and Oath, now AOL does! It's the same principle facing the council camp. The Cubs have had 4-5 years of Cub Scout Day Camp, Family camping every year maybe twice a year, Webelos 3 day camp and now for the first time week long Cub summer camp this summer. The last two years, when the discussion came up where the boys wanted to do summer camp, they wanted to go anywhere other than council camp, Remember my new troop consists mostly of Webelos cross-overs. That does not bode well for for the camp. This year they dropped one week session of Boy Scout summer camp and replaced it with a church denomination coming in and renting the whole camp for the week. It's only a matter of time before yet another camp bites the dust. You are correct, @@Eagle94-A1 it has become BORRRRING!

One's gotta remember that this guy Stosh on the forum uses sarcasm a lot. One really doesn't need BSA to be making a fortune on something that is far easier to do than what most people think. Seriously - it is my belief that the social dynamics behind co-ed scouting is more political agenda posturing than actually looking out for what is in the best interest of the youth. If one wants a one-size-fits-all to the upbringing of our young people, then it is the responsibility of those believing that to act on their beliefs, but it is probably a more honest approach to develop their own program from scratch, designed specifically for those co-ed beliefs rather than simply hijacking someone else's program because they didn't want to put in the effort to do it themselves. The litmus test in any political posturing is to reverse the polarity and see if it still floats. What if there was a movement for boys to join Girl Scouts and began pressing them go co-ed. I would venture to guess there would be a political backlash far louder than girls usurping the boy's program. One can always see the hypocrisy a lot better doing this. I have had great success running a outdoor co-ed youth program through churches. Raise some money, buy some equipment, and go camping. Take a BSHB along for reference. One doesn't need to be a registered scouter to buy BSA literature. As a matter of fact I have taught MB classes to many different groups out there. The last one I did was orienteering for a group of older lady kayakers. I didn't even need to be a registered MB counselor, no back ground check, no 2-deep, and with the group being all female, I didn't even need a female adviser along. Bought the books, used my maps and compasses, had fun teaching, the ladies appreciated it and it cost them the price of the book and a Saturday afternoon after paddling a river in the morning. Being the instructor I got to go on the paddle for free! ..... and the best thing about it, I didn't need to hijack BSA to do it. The best course I ever taught was the Cooking MB where 3 guys who couldn't cook paid my way to Canada for a week of fishing so I could teach them how to cook the fish on the open fire. I almost felt guilty for taking such advantage of them.... I got over it.

@@Eagle94-A1, regardless of one's background, the problem is more social in nature. My wife is a forester by training, she worked in the US Forestry Department in Alaska for many years. She raised 4 kids, 3 girls and one boy all of which worked their way through college commercial fishing in the salmon industry. She's an avid camper, and besides knitting, she whitewater kayaks just about every week in the summer. We had a mild winter back a couple of years ago and she got kayaking in for 18 months straight and we're talking Wisconsin/Minnesota here. There's no doubt she can run rings around most SM's out there today. But she's the first to admit that the dynamics between her and kids and myself and kids is worlds apart.

Kinda strange the Finns have co-ed except for about 3 years. Kinda makes one wonder if it's a token gesture at best. It also breaks up the continuity of friendships as well. Maybe BSA out to run a Cub/Boy Scout program which is male only and then a parallel co-ed program under a different name, i.e. Explorers/Venturers, but same outdoor type programming so that one can have a true choice in the matter from the CO's down to the individual scout. This would open the door for increased membership, more uniform sales, patches, literature, etc. and the BSA could make a fortune off of it.

Under those conditions, I would agree with that. Money and assets raised for scouting belongs to scouting. As long as one understands that ISA's doesn't belong to an individual, I can go along with a CO hanging on to assets and funds until IT decides what scouting organization gets it. They can hold it in reserve for some future scouting opportunity or give it to a unit of their choice.

We have a program that allows for choice after the age of 14 for the females. Yet they don't avail themselves of it very much. I believe I heard at one time it was running about 2:1 males. I am currently working on organizing a new Crew in a neighboring community which my wife and I will lead and from what I hear from the interest survey, the bulk of the potential participants were female. As long as BSA provides an all-male choice for Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts, I don't have a problem. We have all-male Cub and Boy Scouts. We have all-female Daisy, Brownie, Cadet and Girl Scouts, if people want co-ed programs there are church and community groups for those that wish. Lots of options out there to choose from and as long as BSA doesn't go along with the same-old, same-old as everyone else, they will continue to offer males a real choice besides take it or leave it. For what it's worth, churches CO BSA units all the time, they CO Venturing Crews as well. If one were to actually roll up their sleeves instead of whining about it, there are a lot of churches out there that would be willing to set up young people youth ministries that focus on outdoor adventures. When I was in in the ministry the kids that were too young for Bible camp went with the Mrs. and me camping for a week. Always had a fun time with them, both the guys and gals. They didn't have to wear a uniform either.

One also has to take into consideration that the church congregation may find it easier to rent space or to find other facilities for its ministry without needing the current building. Dumping the building and/or moving into a less expensive meeting facility makes sense for a struggling congregation. When I started a new congregation, I spent the first year doing worship services in the middle school cafeteria. I would suggest the leaders of this unit check out what's going on before jumping to conclusions. As long as they are a viable entity, they still own the charter.

As intense as they are, I wonder if the Webelos AOL requirements are more focused and intense than the Scout/Tenderfoot requirements that they have to turn around and do all over again when they reach Boy Scouts.

Cut me some slack there, @@SeattlePioneer I was just a dumb little 7 year old at the time. I didn't learn about lineotypes until I was 8.....