Stosh

6-8 boys per patrol, come up with a leader, when you're done, come tell me who's in the patrol and who's leading it. End of discussion. Everything from that point on is up to the boys to figure out. If they have a problem with what they have chosen, not your problem, it's their problem. Leader isn't doing the job? Either help him be a better PL or get a new one that will do the job! Your choice, your problem, figure it out. The more they struggle getting the group and keeping the group happy, the more they will gel. Adult interference in any of that will negate all that they have worked for. PL has two scouts that are not working well together? Then he better figure out how to fix it, it's his job as PL. Best buddies in two different patrols? Talk to the PL's work it out! Whatever it takes to take care of your boys!!! 2 patrols of 8 and one new boy cross-over, one too many for either patrol. 6-8 boys/patrol, figure it out. Get creative, think outside the box, problem solve. All good learning opportunities for the boys! Let them have at it! Can the PL approach an adult for support and advice? Yep! Can the adult fix it for him? Nope! Surprisingly this stuff does work itself out and the boys learn as they go. This is how it's supposed to work....AND IT DOES! Trust the boys, let them lead!

Nope, I've thought about this all evening and even though I love to cook, especially over a campfire, I love to eat, I still have no interest whatsoever of making cooking a career, it never crossed my mind at any time in my life and I can honestly say I have no way to explain why this profession would be of interest to me. I could probably come up with a couple of reason why I would NOT ever want to be a cook such as it's fun, but that would wear thin long before my first day on the job would be over. It might be interesting to go to school to become a better cook, I can go with that. But to make a job of it? Nope, never gonna happen. So I can totally see where that kid is coming from.

A scout could go out and survey the cemetery, come home, enter the data in Find a Grave, go down to the VA and fill out the new stone applications that needed replacement, drop off a copy of his findings at the library and turn over another copy for me, the historian and have a well planned, and developed process, but have absolutely no need for leadership. Fantastic organizational task management, just zero leadership. Developing a blood drive marketing strategy could fall into this same snake pit. Same for the boy and his dad finishing up the last 2 picnic tables at the park by themselves. Then there's the scout that tells his buddies to show up at the park at such and such a time, tells them to grab some gloves and safety glasses out of the back of the pickup and a tool of their liking, rake, shovel, saw, whatever, and let head down to the trail head. There he tells them they need to clear everything back 5' on each side of the trail and dump it back deeper in the woods. The last guy through makes sure everything is looking good. When they get to the other end of the trail his dad is doing up burgers for lunch. Don't horse around and miss out on the goodies. Now, both took planning and developing, but which one showed leadership? I don't think some of these Eagle projects need to be all that elaborate that most adults would find a challenge to put together. Meaningful and worthwhile? Yes, but extravagant and complicated? Not necessary. I grew up in a world of Eagle scouts that didn't need this grandiose project hoop to jump through and they were in their own right some pretty good Eagle Scouts. The project doesn't make the Eagle, but some of these projects keep good scouts from becoming Eagles.

Situations like this always remind me of my college course on making tests for class curriculum. 1. A botanist is a scientist who studies ____________. 2. A botanist is a scientist who studies ____________. 3. A botanist is a scientist who studies ____________. The correct answer to question 1 is "hard". The correct answer to question 2 is "Yes" and the correct answer to question 3 is "plants." Of course I might not like the answers given. They may not be what I was looking for, but one has to admit all the answers are correct. It's not the fault of the student, its the fault of the teacher for making stupid test questions. 40 years later that example still sticks in the back of my mind when I ask dumb questions to my scouts and don't get the answer I was looking for.

Desertrat77, I think you have fallen prey to overthinking this. I think the original OP indicated that the boy was answering the question I'm not interested in a career about this MB. That doesn't mean he isn't interested in it as a hobby or a passing interest. I do coin collecting, but I'm not going to open up a coin shop and make a living at it. I may like rocketry, but I probably will not get a job for NASA either. But I might just enjoy building rockets for a hobby. I might not like mustard but I don't have to taste it for the second time to convince myself all over again. However, if I needed to taste mustard in order to get my Eagle, I will probably gag my way through it best I can, but I will guarantee everyone that it's not because I'm interested in doing it. I guess I'm not going to give a scout a hard time because he's not interested in certain MB's and I don't think that should stand in his way of attaining Eagle either. I know of a lot of boys that did take on that challenge and still didn't find it something of interest or liking on his part. He jumped through the hoops, smiled a lot and basically when asked answered honestly, "No this subject is of no real interest to me, but I did it anyway."

Plan and develop is the easy part for my boys. As a matter of fact, once the scope of the project is defined it is left entirely up the boys how they want to do it as long as they produce the appropriate results. I have had 2 different boys from two different troops do it two different ways and the results were the same. There was even more planning and developmental structure than a blood drive which is pretty standard. This is how it works. 1) Research "Find a Grave" 2) Here's a list of soldiers' graves 3) Here's the cemetery 4) Here's what the VA needs to have done 5) Here's what the Archives need to have done. 6) Any questions call me 24/7. 1) The boys needed to figure how what Find a Grave was and how it worked; why it was important; and how it is updated. A system would be needed to do that. A developed plan was necessary for that and work with the WebMaster and his people to get it done. 2) Identify the soldiers on the listing and become familiar with how the cemetery works and is lad out. That means working with the cemetery sextant.. 3) Locate the cemetery, get a map of it's layout and get a team together to develop a plan to break down the work into small groups so the boys can best efficiently cover all the graves in the most effective use of time. 4) Have a written report developed from collected information to pass on to the VA for further evaluation written evaluations locations and photographs to support the work done. Make application for the grave stones needed to be replaced. 5) provide the necessary information to the library archives for their records. 6) turn over copies of the survey to local historian, historical society and genealogy society and any other interested party. Remember, this process has never been done before, you will need to plan and develop it from day one with full knowledge that this is to be a team effort, not just something you will do on your own. Key people you will be working with 1) Troop Webmaster, 2) Administrator of the Veteran's Administration, 3) Stosh in his role as historian (NOT SM), 4) the library archivist and 5) the Sextant of the Cemetery. Others who will be interested in working with you might include the County Historical Society and the County Genealogy Society. So, he has to plan from scratch the entire project, develop totally new plans to accomplish the tasks, work with troop officers, with scout crews to conduct the survey and work with at least 5-6 community organizations and individuals to disseminate the information appropriately. I have yet to go to a blood drive event where the processes, plans etc. aren't already set up by the organization and the only work the boy does is staff the volunteers. One of the problems behind the approval process is the lack of knowledge behind some of these projects. It doesn't take much knowledge to know what a boy means to make picnic tables for the local park or to work a blood drive, or plant some trees, or clear trail, but surveying a cemetery sounds pretty lame on the surface.

I'm a firm believer that scouters may complain about helicoptering parents, but I see plenty of helicoptering scouters doing the same thing, but because they are registered and have been trained, it's okay. NOT! I think the #1 reason scouters don't like helicopter parents is because it cuts into their helicoptering turf..... So, I'm going to take hits for that, that that's okay with me. I hear of plenty of scouters out there that have said their #1 job is to keep parents out of the scouts' hair and by doing that stay out of the scouts' hair as well. These tend to be the troops that have the most potential for boy leadership. The vacuum left by absentee adults means the opportunity for the boys is ripe! I have found they tend to appreciate this opportunity and for the most part make the best of it and do well, often times beyond even my expectations. Desertrat77, you are on the right path when it is indicated that the adults seem to over think much of what is going on with the boys and the reason they overthink it is because they have never taken the opportunity to ask what's going on so they just keep guessing and speculating. Listen to the boys, if given the opportunity, they will definitely surprise even if it wasn't the route the adults would have chosen.

What percentage of scouts are really all that interested in taking ALL the required MB's? Citizenship MB's? I'm thinking that if one could get 10% of the boys say they are interested in those MB's one would be guessing generously. I guess it would be okay to then say. "I'm interested in this MB because I'm interested in getting to the Eagle rank in Boy Scouts." That too, is a valid answer which has nothing to do with the MB subject at all. One can tell whether the answer given is flippant or not. But without the tonality and inflection of the comment, we can't determine exactly what the boy was really answering. If he is truly not interested he should be allowed to answer truthfully. If he is just give a blow-off answer, then that should be dealt with accordingly. One has to be there listening to determine which answer the boy is giving.

You are correct @@desertrat77 in that someday these boys will be exposed to these mixed-bag dynamics and there's one unfortunate flaw in this whole process. In the real world, as in scouting, the person can always move on to the other side of the fence. I don't have to put up with a lousy boss, I don't have to tolerate lazy co-workers, I don't have to hang out with the husbands of my wife's friends, I can pick and choose who I want as friends and I can hang with them in my free time. When my buddies all decided to quit scouts and go Civil Air Patrol, I didn't think on it but maybe a split second and I was off with them on the new adventure. Knowing this, I try my best to keep that option off the table for the boys to consider, because if they do, they can be gone on to greener pastures. The last thing I want to be doing is anything that will facilitate that decision. No I don't cater to their every whim, but if a group of guys want their own separate patrol, I really don't have a valid reason to break them up. They need to be working with the younger boys, that won't happen. They need to be showing leadership, that won't happen. They need to be.... , that won't happen either. Why? Because they will have left the troop, that's why.

LOL! Love it!

Cooking MB??? I'm interested in nothing but marrying a great cook so I never have to wonder what's for dinner!!!

@@fred johnson Using the Eagle Rank Requirement, please help me to understand. I highlighted the parts that concern me. While a Life Scout, plan, develop, and give leadership to others in a service project helpful to any religious institution, any school, or your community. (The project must benefit an organization other than the Boy Scouts of America.) A project proposal must be approved by the organization benefiting from the effort, your Scoutmaster and unit committee, and the council or district before you start. You must use the Eagle Scout Service Project Workbook , BSA publication No. 512-927, in meeting this requirement. (To learn more about the Eagle Scout service project, see the Guide to Advancement , topics 9.0.2.0 through 9.0.2.16.) Other than adding to the requirement, what addition must an Eagle project have that a clearly stated "service project" is lacking? I have often wondered where this mythical Eagle Project is to be some grandiose project of extreme importance that simply showing leadership running a service project gets lost along the way.

A Scout is Reverent. No only does he meet the expectations of his own religion, he is also bound by Scout Law to respect or at least tolerate the expectations of others. I didn't agree with cyclops very often, but I did respect his points of view and totally understand his reasoning for why he left. The comments on the forum can be quite un-Scoutlike at times.

I just focused in on the "It does not interest me" part of the answer. As indicated, there are certain jobs that are good to know about, but they serve no interest to me based on my feelings of what I want to do with my life. Yes, slinging burgers holds no interest for me, it does pay for a lot of young people's education and for that reason alone might interest them. The interest is in getting a further education and not slinging burgers, however. Lunch Ladies? Might have an interest in kids more than the job, some might just need the job, but how many people are seriously interested in middle school students during their lunch hour and whether or not they particularly like what's being served. As long as the food stays off the walls and ceilings, it's a good day. Army KP's? It might be interesting in that one is not going to necessarily get shot at while peeling potatoes. Well, at least the odds are a bit more against it than being on the front lines. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE TO COOK.... mainly because I'm interested in eating well! Whereas I love to cook I would never be interested in doing it professionally.

Okay let's try it out.... 1) Slinging burgers at Micky D's.... 2) School lunch "lady" at the local middle school.... 3) Peeling potatoes for the US Army.... Nope, none of them interest me one bit, but I can see where someone might find it interesting, there are lot of people out there doing this kind of thing every day.

How can one say that what interests a person has no bearing on one's feelings? I would have thought those things that interest me would be 100% dependent on my feelings. I think I'm missing something here. Not all MB's are going to be of interest to everyone, especially the eagle required ones. Seriously, the citizenship MB's are not all that interesting unless one is into history and/or political science. I canoe, I kayak, I sail, I enjoy fishing out of a motorboat, I came within a few feet of getting my life-saving certificate as a youth. But I have no particular interest in swimming. I swim because I have to, not because it interests me. If someone asked me if I ever wanted to be a scuba diver, or a commercial fisherman, I would say absolutely not. I have no interest in spending my time on a boat unless it's going after some large-mouth bass along the shoreline casting for supper. Whitewater canoeing and kayaking is really fun as long as one doesn't end up swimming. I do my annual BSA swim test every year became my interest is such that I can then take the boys out canoeing and kayaking. That's the only time it interests me in getting wet!

No matter what process one uses, if they let the boys decide, then when things go awry, they have no one but themselves to blame. I always go for that option whenever possible. I never want to get holding the bag.

I'm thinking this has something to do with MB requirements? If so, YES it is a valid answer! If a boy takes a MB out of curiosity because it sounded interesting only to find out that it is something he really doesn't like, the answer is perfect. As MBC I don't expect all my boys to fawn all over the subject like it was their life's dream to be involved in it. They are there to explore, to get an somewhat in depth look at the subject. What happens when they find out this isn't what they expected? It always reminds me of the day I got a job in the local factor making $18.00/hour - this was in 1970!!!! Serious money back then! I was on Cloud Nine! Then after about a year and a half it finally dawned on me that I didn't want to make car tires for the rest of my life and I quit and went back to school. That factory is now a specialty boutique of various shops. They haven't made car tires there for years. Does making car tires for $18/hr interest people today? Maybe yes for some, but not for all. I wonder what the $18/hr rate of 1970 translates into today's wage scale?

And if one were to present this to BP I wonder what he would say about natural leadership when it comes to this type of personality? After all that ability to draw others into trouble is a strong indicator of leadership. Just because one may not like it, it's still leadership. Harness that and one has the basis for a great leader. Been there, it works!

I'm thinking that's because the high school aged boys have established their groupings and to mess with them will turn them off to scouting. Hanging with my buddies was #1 with me when I was that age and when my patrol left scouting, we all left together and went into Civil Air Patrol together. All for one, one for all. Younger boys may adapt better to adults' messing with the groups, but as they get more mature and independent, that becomes an eventual deal-breaker.

I know there are certain criteria that has to be met and some are more important than others. For me, the process of leadership (not just management) is of prime importance. Sure there's a bit of management involved to make it work, but for some, that's the only thing that is worthwhile for the project. The candidate only has to get the job done, and having people involved isn't all that important. I have seen too many Eagle project work days where no one shows up to help. What's with that? Where's the leadership here? There isn't any. The candidate has no clue how to take care of his people to insure they show up ready to work on the eagle project. What's even sadder yet is when the SM/ASM's then step in and mandate the boys' attendance or their "scout spirit" will suffer on their advancement. These slow-motion train wrecks are difficult to watch and yet the boy eventually will get the project done if only adults are the only ones showing up to help. The task is done the project is complete, but no leadership is necessarily credited to the project by the scout. It's kinda sad to see. The nice thing about the cemetery project is there is nothing to build, no fund raising, just abstract organization, cemetery maps and lot identification, training of the other scouts to know how to do the grave surveys, what to look for what to photograph, what to record, etc. and then an opportunity for them to get out and work on the project on a day that works for everyone. The boys have always enjoyed the projects because it's like some big treasure hunt process of finding the graves on the maps, reading the stones, learning about the lives of these people and recognizing the veteran contribution each of them have given our country. The really fun part was when one of the boys found a veteran's grave that wasn't a US veteran and got all excited about it. The gentleman's grave was marked on a family stone indicating he was a sergeant in the Texas Army. Everyone had to stop doing what they were doing and came over to "visit" this site. It was as if they had just discovered a Captain Kidd's treasure chest. Many years afterwards, the one boy that first did this as an Eagle project told me that after all these years, whenever he's near a cemetery, he goes over and reads the stones of the military markers. It would seem he carries his Eagle project with him wherever he goes.

@@Krampus If left alone, do you think any of these boys would naturally want to be in the same patrol as the others? I find that boys that don't like each other will find patrols that are different. However, with that being said, I had a kid in my Cub Scout den that was a real jerk. We even went so far as to "take it out back." In Boy Scouts we became best friends. Go figure. As an adult I don't know how all these things work out.... so I stay as far away from the selection processes as I can and for some reason the boys always seem to find a way on their own.... which makes life a lot easier for me.

How did the "toxic" scouts feel about it?

What it boils down to is bill-of-sale with the implication of ownership of the trailer. Legally one would assume that the registration is given to the bill-of-sale owner. if the bill-of-sale is prior to the current registered "owner" of the trailer could it also be assumed that legal ownership was given at zero cost and the current registration signifies ownership?