Stosh

Hmmmm @@Krampus how does one get through the Pledge, the Scout Oath, the Scout Law, Citizenship MB's, Scout Spirit requirements for advancement, etc. without talking about politics or religion? Politics and religion are a integral and vital part of Scouting! Can't just sweep it under the rug to avoid "needless arguments".

Scout: Explain what Scout spirit is. Describe some ways you have shown Scout spirit by practicing the Scout Oath, Scout Law, Scout motto, and Scout slogan Tenderfoot: Demonstrate Scout spirit by living the Scout Oath and Scout Law. Tell how you have done your duty to God and how you have lived four different points of the Scout Law in your everyday life. Second Class: Demonstrate Scout spirit by living the Scout Oath and Scout Law. Tell how you have done your duty to God and how you have lived four different points of the Scout Law (not to include those used for Tenderfoot requirement. First Class: Demonstrate Scout spirit by living the Scout Oath and Scout Law. Tell how you have done your duty to God and how you have lived four different points of the Scout Law (different from those points used for previous ranks) in your everyday life. Star: As a First Class Scout, demonstrate Scout spirit by living the Scout Oath and Scout Law. Tell how you have done your duty to God and how you have lived the Scout Oath and Scout Law in your everyday life Life: As a Star Scout, demonstrate Scout spirit by living the Scout Oath and Scout Law. Tell how you have done your duty to God and how you have lived the Scout Oath and Scout Law in your everyday life. Eagle: As a Life Scout, demonstrate Scout Spirit by living the Scout Oath and Scout Law. Tell how you have done your duty to God, how you have lived the Scout Oath and Scout Law in your everyday life, and how your understanding of the Scout Oath and Scout Law will guide your life in the future. List on your Eagle Scout Rank Application the names of individuals who know you personally and would be willing to provide a recommendation on your behalf, including parents/guardians, religious (if not affiliated with an organized religion, then the parent or guardian provides this reference), educational, employer (if employed), and two other references. I find it rather strange that out of all the Scout Spirit requirements, the not wearing of the non-required uniform is deemed appropriate to punish a scout into compliance to some standard set by an adult. Get real, people, getting the boys to show up at all in this day and age is an accomplishment in Scout Spirit. And this coming from the guy who's accused of coloring outside the lines when it comes to BSA compliance..... @@CalicoPenn One demonstrates Scout Spirit by living the Scout Oath and Law. Don't over-think it. It's not that difficult if one knows what the Oath and Law is.

One cannot legislate morality nor loyalty. Individuals cannot be forced into community. There are and have been individuals who seek personal gain from other communities they have no intention of ever being a participant in as long as they get what they want for themselves. What they gain at the expense of others is totally irrelevant to anyone other than themselves. An atheist working religious holidays for over-time pay is just a perk to be taken advantage of. If they were truly sincere in their beliefs, they would turn down the over-time and work it as just another day, which they claim is the case in the first place. It's call self-gain hypocrisy.

LOL! My first job after my paper route as a kid was washing windows inside and out at the local library. Guess where the windows are at the library! 30' ladders outside, and 10' ladders inside where I could get up on top of the book shelves and move from one window to the next to wash. I was 13 years of age at that point! By the way, when one works for the library, they are a city government employee. And I didn't need to walk through the snow uphill both ways to get to the library.

LOL! Love it. $113??? OMG, now I feel bad. I'd have been unemployed, untrained, and probably destitute but I could always say I was making $113 back in the day when my grandkids ask. That was pretty good wages for a master tire builder. I made a car tire on average every 2 minutes for 8 hours. And to think people were driving down the road at 70 mph on those babies! Kinda makes one want to wear a seat belt!

The jury is always out on these issues because they aren't locked in stone to begin with. Some troops do well with NSP's and the next one hates them. Wait two or three years and that might very well be reversed. One group of boys comes into my troop and they don't want to hang with each other but want to be in with the other boys. No problem. Go talk with them, knock yourself out. Next year these boys have been together since Tigers they want to stay that way. No problem. Want a TG? How's about an older boy that needs a POR, can he be considered for your PL? You gonna figure it out on your own? Great, go for it. Whatever it takes. The older boys from all three existing patrols are getting ready to quit. Why not all get together start your own patrol and go to Philmont? Maybe you can all work together helping each other with all getting the Eagle. Sure, why not. There's no rules that say it has to be one way or the other. Just go with what works for the boys. Let them tell you what works best for them. That way when things go south, they don't take you with them. Seriously, in different ways they all work quite well and I have bigger fish to fry than worry about patrol structures. That's an easy lesson for the boys to figure out on their own. If you don't like what you have, change it to what you want. Just let me know what you decide so I can update the troop records. If left alone, the patrols will gel, will get along with each other, will function on their own and the boys will generally be happier with their patrol mates..... and it didn't require one ounce of adult effort to make it happen.

One needs to remember that what is discussed is not a debate that someone needs to win or lose at. Often times it is simply an expressing of differing views. Krampus and I have differing views on some subjects here, but it in no way affects how I view him as a person. But when people express different opinions one of them doesn't need to be right and the other wrong. One does not need to attack the messenger to refute the message. One does not need to demonize a person just because one doesn't agree with their ideas. Yet I find that such antics aren't reserved just for the I&P sections of this forum or other forums set up in similar ways. I go back into the 1990's with my forums and all I can say is the usefulness of such exchange of ideas has consistently deteriorated with time. I think @@desertrat77 is correct, people today can't distinguish the difference between an exchange of ideas and an argument. Our intolerance and hypersensitivity has made it impossible to discuss topics in a open forum setting. It's unfortunate because a lot of learning can happen if allowed open recourse.

My bonus daughter is going the ob/gyn route. But at age 28 her friend now makes more money per year than she ever will, owns his own boat and commercial fishes in Alaska debt free. He spends his winters in either FL or HI...... He's 28 too. Just to give you an idea of the money we're talking about here. Her brother commercial fished a couple of months and graduated from a prestigious eastern college debt free in electrical engineering. Now with his degree and 3 years of work experience he is looking into buying a boat....

You guys are right on. Too many adults trying to dictate how things should be instead of creating gr eat opportunities for boys to show the world what they are made of! How does one "mentor" a boy's dream? It ain't gonna happen....EVER!

I'm with qwazse on this one, While it's a terrific resource and an opportunity to go in depth on some subjects, it doesn't make allowances for those who might not have the thicker skin. I just don't know why the forum can't have courteous dialog on a political level? We have 3 MB's on Citizenship, yet we are not allowed to actually use it? What's with that?

@@TWCub Welcome to the forum. I like your style, the quicker one gets decisions and choices into the hands of the boys, the quicker they grow up and mature. You met their expectations, not their parents. You may take flack for that, but in the long run your boys will appreciate it.

This is why my TF scouts of the NSP have been known (and often expected) to "take the lead" on service projects for their patrol and even for the troop at times. Some of my older boys were doing Service Project/Eagle Project work without bothering to do the paperwork and jump through hoops. They just would pick one to do the hoops/paperwork just to get Eagle credit for it. The older boys eventually would back off on the projects and help the younger boys pick service projects to learn as they got closer to the time when they would need to pick one to do a write-up on. I have seen my boys over the years do many "Eagle Projects" that simply didn't get written up but involved far more management and leadership than what I see some EP's of today doing.

It's interesting that with the comments being made and yet I still take flack on being able to differentiate between Paper Eagles and Real Eagles. I have seen too many years of how scouting has changed and until I toss my hiking boots into the closet for the last time, I'm going to keep the trail I've always trod.

Duh! how do you think I got B-P's autograph!

I dunno, I have myself on my ignore list.

Anyway, if I was a chef in a fancy restaurant I would get fired right away. All that fantastic food right there in front of me and I have 10 reasons right there to stick into it and taste to see how good I made it! On a serious note: Your illustration is a good one that I have often used when talking careers with my youth, both scouts and church. I have bonus daughter that is in her 4th year of medical residency. I figure she'll be in her 40's maybe 50's before she pays off her student loans. I have a step son going to tech school under the GI bill who's picking up construction, welding, electrical, plumbing and masonry and after 2 years will be debt free making 3 times as much as I ever did working in the ministry, the IT dept or manufacturing..... It used to be one HAD to go to college to have a well paying job, but if one wants to build wealth, college isn't always the #1 choice one needs to consider.

There's another feature of the forum that is quite handy. It's the ignore list. Just put people on that and their posts don't show up on your feed.

One must be available to support the youth leaders in the troop. If a boy is finding it difficult to plan ahead with activities and things just muddle along, there's nothing wrong with the SM (or SPL if there is one) asking the PL, "What can I do to help." Leave the lead to the PL to define what he needs. Too often adults step in and push what they think is needed. Always a disaster waiting to happen because the PL immediately loses ownership in the problem. "You have the solution to the problem? It's your baby, Mr. SM! Knock yourself out!" The PL is totally justified in doing that in my opinion! The only thing the adult needs to remember in this whole process is that he/she is not the solution to whatever problem the PL is having, he/she is the backboard to bounce PL ideas off of. The first thing I ALWAYS ask my PL's when the come to me with a problem in their patrol, "What does your APL think about this?" If he doesn't know, then the next question is, "Why?" Isn't the APL supposed to be functioning as the PL's right-hand, go-to assistant? If not, the PL needs to get someone in that position to help him lead the patrol, that's what an assistant is supposed to be doing anyway. Two heads are better at solving problems than one. Surprisingly at that point, most conversations cease and the PL/APL team go after the problem together and generally work things out. To many PL's out there feel alone and abandoned when their right-hand man is sitting there on his hands waiting for him to skip a meeting so he has something to do. Train your boys to lead and they will and the adults will naturally fade into the background as support staff to the troop. I have found that the more one interferes in the operation of a trained troop (notice the past tense) the more problems there are. What happens most often is that the boys get management training but no leadership training and they need to constantly go back to the adults for the advice, authority, etc. because the adults can't trust and let go of the reins.

But is that the expectation of a BSA forum? I'm totally on-board with what Desertrat77 is saying about people being overly sensitive and a little leeway is allowed to a certain degree, but personal attacks against people rather than their ideas is pretty much out of the realm of scout-like behavior. There's a difference between, "I have trouble accepting that religious principle in my life." vs. "You have to be a complete idiot to believe that mumbo-jumbo." Both may be free speech, but one may have a lot of difficulty making Scout muster as an acceptable way of "helping other people at all times" and being "courteous", "kind" and "reverent." Just because it's under the I&P section doesn't mean one leaves their scout hat at the door. If that is one's acceptable mode of operation, one might want to look up the meaning of the word "hypocrite" in the dictionary. It might help with understanding the point I am trying to make.

Yep, you got it! Your TG is a keeper, needs to be a perpetual TG for every new patrol in your troop. There comes a time when they need to get the boot out of the nest and take on the challenges of life. Never underestimate the ability of your fledglings to fly. The can and do! Ya just gotta, "Train 'em. Trust 'em. LET THEM LEAD!" William "Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt

As an administrator on other forums, I know the position you are in. Not comfortable to say the least, but there comes a time when one has to stand up for a principle (i.e. Scout Law) and hold the line regardless of the push back (A Scout is Brave). Free speech is allowed in this country, but civility is a virtue that can't be shouted down. The route that sub-forum is taking is leading straight to extinction. The sooner the better. If free speech is not allowed in the other sub-forums because of scouting principles, a cesspool section is not appropriate anywhere on the forum. I&P issues can be addressed without the opportunity to drive away good scouters. My vote is to let the moderators do their job within the limits of the Scout Law and if one finds it necessary to be allowed their free speech, they should be the ones looking for a new forum to mess up.

When I was a scout the project requirement didn't exist, That would make it quite a bit different.

And what's that got to do with cooking????

Just because something is dumped under I&P doesn't mean that postings in that area are exempt from the Scout Law.