Stosh

With my reputation, I kinda figured it would have been obvious. With all the kind comments being made I actually started feeling guilty about it. That's why I ended with a Happy April 1st, I kinda felt the fool on this one. Well, I have a whole year to get over it.

My attendance at an Eagle project is as a worker only. I do not supervise one bit. I do not look over the candidate's shoulder to make sure ever iota of safety is accounted for. It's not my job to mentor, guide, direct, suggest or even inspire, that's the job of the candidate. If he's not ready to do that, he's not ready to be an Eagle. I do not involve my self in any boy's project unless asked directly for advice or support in some form or another specifically stated by the candidate which has never happened. There is no Eagle advisor getting in there and muddling around either. It's pretty much standard that by the time the candidate is ready to do his project he is well versed in doing service projects. As far as I'm concerned the only difference between one of our troop/patrol service projects and an Eagle project is the fact the boy has to document it for the Council. I also know that there are boys in my troops over the years that have taken on enough of the troop/patrol service projects that they carry that over into other areas of their lives, taking the lead on projects at school and worship community. I even have my church youth group leaders taking the lead, just like my scouts with doing service projects. Right now my church youth group is gearing up to do spring cleanup at the scatter garden at the local cemetery. Because it's an annual effort, the person taking lead is fairly new at it. Lots of cleanup and acquisition of flowers, etc. is a pretty big task for a newbie, but they do quite well. I've seen Eagle projects get written up for a lot less than that. I lean on a shovel on those projects too.

We have all had the opportunity to walk the solitude of nature's most precious gift. The flower laden meadows, the mountain-top vistas, the verdant forest shadows. Those are special moments. On occasion we will meet a fellow traveler and if they join up on your trail heading the same way something magical seems to take place. If they are burdened with a pack carrying a walking stick they are immediately seen as something special to share all of this nature with. The laughter, the insights, the campfires at night, the communion of a shared can of beans keep the moments burning deeply in one's memory. It doesn't matter where they are from or even where they are going. For a brief moment in time they merely share in one's life. It is inevitable that somewhere down the trail it will split and the company we share will go our different ways. Until then we make the most of what we have, enjoy each others company and even if for a brief moment bond in a common quest...the trail. Soon that fork in the trail is there in the trail and one must bid a farewell to a fellow traveler. It leaves a hole where joy, comfort, safety, and even love seemed to taken residence. But now it's gone. Everything about that person has taken another trail and one is again left in the solitude of a single trail. The flowers don't seem to be as brilliant as they once were, the vistas not so grand, the forests seem dark in shadow. There is no one there to share it with and it isn't quite the same. These holes left in our soul long for someone or something to fill them, but until we happenstance another traveler, it is lonely. Maybe trails were not meant to be traveled alone. Maybe the trail isn't what is important. Maybe the goal is not pretty flowers or mountain-top experiences or the solitude of gentle forests. Maybe it's the people that make those things important. Maybe we are to leave a trace in each fellow traveler's life.... Maybe when they leave a piece of them with me, I'm leaving a piece of me with them. I hope I gave them my best. Happy April 1st

What people don't realize that behind the scenes there is always a ton of crap being passed back and forth with PM's and such. I have tried to stay civil. I have used my Ignore List liberally, but over the past 2 days the whole issue of Scout Spirit among "scouters" seems to have gone out the window. I always considered myself to be rather thick skinned, but I've had enough. Thanks for sharing the trail, but it's time to take another path.

I totally agree, @@fred johnson that there has to be a line drawn in the sand somewhere. I for one will never touch a chainsaw. All the trees and firewood I've cut has been with axe and bucksaw. I've dropped some pretty big trees over the years and had many neighbors offer to cut it for me. All of which I have taken them up on it because they know what they're doing. But simply knowing one's limits and the risks involved, one is not going to be able to keep kids from hurting themselves. I don't know all the rules and regs, but I do know that training and supervision go a long way to reduce risk and that's more important than rules. One may have a scout that has been building bat houses for years, selling them along with this blue bird houses and wood duck houses to pay for all of his scouting activities. Power tools are a way of life for him, but when he gets to his Eagle project has to use all hand tools, which he hasn't used for years, to do it. Doesn't make much sense. One has to always consider a lot of different dynamics in the issue and not rely on just a one-size-fits-all rule someone made up to insure the clumsiest person in the world won't hurt themselves. Heck, the number of times I've smashed my fingers far exceeds the number of times I've fallen off the ladder climbing to the roof to shingle. I hate heights, I'm really careful with ladders, and yet at the end of the day, my thumbs take months to heal. Know the rules, and be smart with the known and unknown risks involved in all projects. That's the best insurance.

Wrap the boys in aluminum foil before the ceremony so that they don't start themselves on fire and you should be okay.

@@qwazse I apologize OMg! Is that better? Considering God isn't his/her real name, just a definition of who he/she is. Then a proper definition of that whole subject would do wonders as to how the process works, too. That we can save for another day. I've -1'd posts that undermined what I'd expect from civil discourse. I think we are all pretty much in agreement when we see others over-step and when we get a ding about our overstepping. I've also personally messaged some of you who persisted in doing something inappropriate for a forum. The behavior changed. End of discussion. I have done this as well, sometimes it works, sometimes it only aggravates the situation. One wins some and one looses some. I've stopped replying to a topic - without fanfare - because I realized I was sucking up all of the air in the room. I have done this as well, and if the other person is insistent with keeping the tirade going, they make it to my "Ignore List" as well. One really doesn't need to put up with these types of things. I don't make a big deal about it, but my actions pretty much will let the person have the last word and they can go away and bother someone else. At times I'd apologize for a harsh generalization. I seriously try to not offend in the first place. When I get a red arrow ding, it always comes as a surprise. Unfortunately we don't know who green/red arrow click so we don't know who to thank or apologize to. That's unfortunate. I do appreciate the forum members who HAVE personally IM'd me and pointed out where I have offended or could be misunderstood by what I attempted to say. Those members are the keepers for this forum! And NO they are not always the moderators! Just good Scouters! At other times, I'd reply publicly about why I did not think a statement of mine deserved some cliche`d label that a forum member gave it. We don't have to throw a public gauntlet down at every offense. Or carry a grudge on into every other area one might be discussing next. We can arrange a private one-on-one conversation. "Leave your gift at the alter and reconcile with your brother." "If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. This is always my first step, when it doesn't work, then the next line of the quote is, "But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter maybe established by the testimony of two or three witnesses. Time to get the moderators enlisted to help. "If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. Only at this point does one make it an issue on the open forum. "And if he refuses to listen even to the church. Treat him as you would a pagan or tax collector." Here is where, if the moderators don't remove the person, I can at least put them on my "Ignore List". I added the whole context Quazse because too many of us are tempted to jump right to the "Tell the whole Church" before trying the more sane approach described by this alternative approach. We can ask our spouse/significant other to review what we wrote, and apologize publicly if he/she says we went too far. Proof reading it a couple of times to oneself also goes along way to allow one to think about what is written, too.. Kinda keeps one from being too trigger happy when one shoots off their mouth.

My #2 rule for the troop is, "Look and act like a Scout." Obviously it incorporates both the Scout Law/Oath as well as the uniform issues, BUT they are kept separate! One can look like a Scout and yet not act like one, and vice versa. Therefore in my troop the two are separate and held accountable separately tor advancement purposes. Scout Spirit is considered only under the "act like a Scout" part of the rule. The better uniformed patrol ("looks like a Scout") gets to decide on the troop wide games and who does the flags, etc. That PL functions somewhat like an SPL for the evening because he has done the best with his patrol. Other subtle perks are given out to the PATROL that looks the most like a Scout.

I don't worry one way or the other. I don't always know whether I'm in I&P because I use the "View New Content" feature and so I always respond as if it's a regular forum. If losing members because of these comments is a problem, then one could reconsider it, but it is my experience we could be losing just as many in the other forums for the same reason. I've seen some fairly contentious comments being tossed around in O/A, Patrol Method, etc. as well. One always has to consider the "other hand" which is outside the box. The people leaving under the current system are those who feel victimized by others on the forum and leave. The perpetrator stays. That might not be a fair system. Maybe a few warning shots over the bow of such people might be enough to set their course straight. Otherwise as a last resort, instead of waiting for the victims to quit, these people get the boot. If they want to reconsider their attitude, they can re-register on the forum and play nice.

One is there as an adult to create opportunities. In this case I would let the boys give it their best shot. They can't lose. Either they win or they learn. As an adult myself I would just stand back and be prepared to help pick up the pieces for their next attempt. If they are starting to get bummed out by the struggles, one could always offer up B-P's suggestion to try and see what they have to say. I've always let them "have at it" and they always seem to do well with picking patrols that work. Surprisingly it is never what I would have done had I been the one making up the patrols. One less hassle for me to deal with.

BWCA doing your own outfitting is cheaper than council summer camp and 10 times better!.

OMG! That's funny!!!

Here's a challenge.... find something that BSA hasn't screwed up, Now that's a toughy.

CalicoPenn, I often wonder whether it is the adult interpretations or the requirements themselves that worry me more. I have a pretty good understanding the scope of the Scout Spirit issue. It relates to the practical application of the scout Oath and Law. The uniform, attendance, POR fulfillment, age appropriate to the rank, adult interpretations that somehow get leveraged into the discussion bother me more. If one were to explicitly, or more explicitly, state it only relates to scout Oath and Law, then they can just leave it alone. These requirements aren't supposed to be Federal Law where we have a Supreme Court to handle the interpretations, this is just some kid trying to do his best and get through the skills training to be able to enjoy the outdoors more. Why do the adults have to step in a make it something lawyers need to deal with?

Hover over the ring on the website and it does state that it is not required. It is also not listed below under the uniform essentials, World crest, council patch and numerals are all required. It's just another example of BSA's inconsistency policy for uniform wear.

If there is truly a separation of religion and government, why is the government even considering religious holidays as part of it's calendar. I spends a lot of time trying to justify it's holiday for one religious community while denying another. Wouldn't it be a lot easier just to pick some random date out of the air, like maybe the 4th of July or last Thursday of November or Last Monday of May or First Monday of September, for the holidays and let it go at that? We have national holidays that have nothing to do with religion, keep those, and dump the rest. If nothing else, everyone will be able to whine equally. That seems fair. So instead of paying everyone overtime for a religious observance they don't even believe in, why not just let those people who want to be home for their holiday the opportunity to stay home without pay or take it as a vacation day. I did that for years.

I think it's in the best interest to have the BSA put out a disclaimer on the scout/scouter registration form that all have to have a notary signature stating that in order to participate in the program they realize that it involves a certain degree of adventure which means a correlating degree of personal risk of harm. If one is not willing to take that risk, please don't sign up. There is a reason why people sit on their living room sofas and interact socially with the world electronically. It's all part of the issue of personal safety. Simply stepping out the front door without sunscreen and bug repellent immediately places one's health and safety in jeopardy and they have yet to let go of the door to shut behind them. Then we can consider any cracks or imperfections in the porch, steps and sidewalk. Then, getting in the car, buckling up, and..... well, just don't let me get started on that!

So then, how does one do a "snort of derision" on the forum?

When I was a kid growing up there was a certain amount of social decorum that went with the way people dress. However, the dress code of today has taken on a whole different definition. Sandals and snowbanks didn't mix with each other and never were part of the same sentence. What was once called pajama bottoms today are Walmart pants. Underwear was really UNDERware. First impressions are still important, however, and they have a lasting effect for quite some time. That is a lesson everyone has to learn on their own. My boys are not "required" to wear a uniform nor wear it correctly, but if they wish to garner respect as a scout, one had better take the uniform into consideration. It is also important among my boys that if the uniform is worn it is worn correctly. Yes, I have seen boys in my troop during flags use the civilian salute of hand over heart because all they had was the uniform shirt. Uniforms are optional, but so is any respect one might receive because of wearing one. Eventually a boy wearing an Insane Clown Posse t-shirt will probably not be recognized, respected or even taken seriously as a scout by others. If they learn that lesson from outside the troop, it is far more effective than the SM making a weekly issue out of it.

All I did was ask my DE for some recruiting materials I could use and voila, a bin showed up with all kinds of things from banners to application forms. Didn't cost me a dime.

As Christian I don't expect to get paid extra on a Jewish holiday. I don't expect to get paid extra on a Hindu holiday, As an atheist, why would I expect to get paid extra on any religious holiday? Keep it in mind that when I was in the ministry, I worked ALL Christian holidays and didn't get paid extra for any of them. Why would I expect overtime pay for working Christmas? It just boils down to how one wishes to justify their ethical stance. If one doesn't have any ethical stance on the issue, just take the money and don't ask questions.

Here's the rub @@CalicoPenn If our adults have no way to explain what it means objectively, how is any boy going to get past the requirement?: Scout: Explain what Scout spirit is. Describe some ways you have shown Scout spirit by practicing the Scout Oath, Scout Law, Scout motto, and Scout slogan. Where is the "hold him back because he's not old enough" part of that? Where's the "his uniform shirt is never tucked in." part of that? This is where the Advancement Police start their extravagant justification process that leads to abuse of the whole Scout Spirit issue. His shirt is not tucked in = Disobedient! Missed 25% of the activities = "Disloyal"! Didn't meet adult expectations on doing the POR the way they wanted it done = "Untrustworthy"! Is this negative tonality of adult judgments the lessons we really want to be teaching our boys? The boy was there, he had his full uniform on, it wasn't tucked it, but in 99% of the cases of boys out there he was miles ahead of everyone else! That should not be a negative ding on the boy, Find something good and use that to promote and encourage Scout Spirit, not some nit-picking issue that bullies and/or demeans an otherwise fairly good effort on the part of the boy. One of the main reasons why I truly believe I don't have the kinds of behavioral problems from my boys that are commonly expressed on this forum is because I don't dish out cr@p. What I dish out is what I get back. All my adult boys that visit with me and or come up to me on the street always refer to me as Mr. Stosh even though they have all been invited to call me by my first name now that they are adults. They never do and so I still call them by their names, "Mr. Smith", "Mr. Jones", etc. That kind of mutual respect did not grow out of nit-picking advancements and bullying them into some adult driven Scout Spirit compliance. Their Scout Spirit is evident in their lives every time I see them on the street or in a store or at a campsite down the road a bit with their wife and kids.

You know I'm just pulling your chain a bit, but one must realize that if we are making a pledge to a nation that is viewed as "under God" it has a religious implication as do the words of the words of the Oath "duty to God AND Country" (hits both religion and politics) and the different dynamics of the Law such as Loyal, Obedient, Reverent all have political/religious overtones that could certainly be part of a discussion among the boys. "Who are ya gonna vote for?" is a bit inflammatory and needs to be dealt with far differently than "You're gonna vote when the time comes, aren't you?" Both on the same topic, but one is very appropriate for a scout conversation and the other could be better left at home. When I was growing up it was considered inappropriate in polite society (back in the day when that still existed) to not talk about religion, politics, or women. Oh how times have changed!

To a certain extent, wearing one's emotions close to the surface on issues that are near and dear to a person is a good thing. But when doing so, it makes one's responsibility even greater in how they have learned to cope with it. If every time someone "insulted" my religion, I hauled off and hit them, or walked away, or shot them, or dumped a scathing Tweet on the internet or called the police and had them arrested for hate speech, will all garner different judgments from people observing the interaction. On the one hand, "He must not have felt it important because he just walked away" on the one end of the scale to "I don't think he needed to shoot him." on the other. Somewhere in between these two extremes we all seem to find our place. In Cyclops' situation I think he had had enough and threw the towel in. Not what I would have done, but I respect his decision. There are other fish to fry in his life than being part of a scouting forum that aggravates his sensitivities. It is unfortunate he'll miss out on other topics that he might benefit from. If there are others out there that tend to feel the same way, I would suggest putting those that have differing view that cause an unpleasant reaction on your part, to put them on the ignore list so that one can still enjoy and learn from those on the forum who cover other topics. I just hate to see people miss out on 100 good things because of one or two bad things that come along on the forum. This goes for lurkers too! Don't throw out the whole bushel because of a couple of bad apples.

THIS IS WHY ADULT RUN TROOPS ARE COUNTER TO THE PRINCIPLES OF THE BSA! They look good on the surface, but underneath they are doing more damage than one could ever imagine. The same holds true for the uniform! A boy can look terrific with an impeccable uniform worn military perfect, but if the boy in that uniform holds contempt for the Scout Oath and Law, the picture is totally useless.