Stosh

THIS is why adults are not supposed to be in charge! I rest my case!

I love all this total gibberish about risk management and bubble balls. It is far less dangerous than fire building, axe usage, food allergies, bees, bears, Dutch oven cooking, swimming, whitewater canoeing,rifle shooting, archery, bad weather and riding in the car to get to camp. I'm glad I'm 65 years of age and will miss out on the next 100 years of scouting. I'm thinking I will have gotten the better half of the deal anyway.

Negative discipline applied incorrectly can create an adversarial situation... any one with passive aggressive tendencies will be there someday to remind one of that.

@@blw2 In no way would I suggest you "bypass" anything in the "chain of command". For one thing, my "chain of command" is different than most. I have the PL's at the top of the chain and the adults at the bottom, holding up the foundation of the troop in a supporting position. While I'm not in favor of adult interference, there is nothing wrong with adult association. Being the SM is not a one-man-band. It takes a supportive team of adults (committee) to associate at varying levels in a variety of different roles to make the team work possible. Each member of the patrol has a job to do, same for the committees. The CC and SM need to be on the same page when it comes to the Treasurer working with the Scribe, and the Activity Committee person and SPL getting together with the WebMaster to get the annual calendar up on-line doesn't happen in a vacuum either. The Scribe might be turning in monies to the Treasurer at the beginning of the meeting and then working with the QM on the proposed new equipment he has identified from each of the PL's. In military and business organizations there are organizational charts to show who's "running the show". But when the bomber comes under attack from air and ground forces, the pilot does his best to keep the plane in the air with the help of the co-pilot, the bombardier does his best to hit the target, the gunners do their best to ward off the fighters, the radioman does his best to keep in communication with everyone, the navigator does his best to keep them on course, the flight engineer does his best to keep the equipment working. So. Who's in charge? No one. They are all too busy doing their job to worry about who's in charge. This is the goal I work for in the patrol, in the troop, among the adults, etc. everyone minds their own business, tends to their own business, work with everyone that needs their expertise and in the end, everyone has played an important part in the success of the activities. Who's the hero? the one person who was able to do the most supporting the success of others. Whenever there's an activity available to be done the question is always: "Who wants to take lead on this?" Never is it asked, "Who want to be in charge of this?" Big difference. So, then. If one is going to be the Committee Treasurer of a boy-led program. who is the treasurer accountable to? Doing what the CC says or working with the QM to make sure the boys have the equipment they are asking for?

I have seen boys doing their altar boy routine of 5 minutes worth of work and 1 hour worth of credit.

Good thing the guy is overweight or he'd have to leave half his bling at home.

Was the requirement for number of activities/camping nights signed off? If that be true, what ADDITIONAL campout is he talking about? Once that's cleared up you will probably know what the real reason for the hassle is all about. If all the requirements are checked off except BOR and Scout Spirit, then the SM is jerking your son around and that should be brought to the committee's attention.

@@desertrat77 That flap patch means very little to kids. I had a group of new boys head out to camp with me and the first year I forgot to pack my OA sash. No big deal. I have the flap. Well the second summer camp rolls around and I had my sash and wore it. The kids were all totally blown away that I was an OA member. Never saw the pocket flap? Gotta work the boys on their observation skills.

this is where you and I differ, I DO run the crews I have been involved with exactly like my troops. Just a bit of adjustment for age maturity, but pretty much the same. Just last night I was at an orientation meeting for a new crew I am setting up. I suggested they break the crew into smaller groups, maybe those that were friends hang together, maybe those interested in canoe/kayaking hang together, maybe those that backpack and camp hang together, those that bike hang together, etc. They run the show.... They can go after advancement if they want.... If you don't want to pay for the activity yourself, better plan some fund raisers, etc. It's the same spiel as I would give if I was setting up a troop. It's pretty much the same as I am currently running my Webelos den of boys. They sit and work as patrols and have "PL's", do flags, etc. just like they would starting out in a troop.

I have had different systems over the years. Troop 1) had troop necker, boys all required to wear it. Honor patrol had their own necker and wore them while doing patrol activities or activities as a patrol, i.e. camporee competitions, etc. Troop 2) had troop necker, boys could wear that or any other earned necker they wished at any time. Troop 3) has troop/patrol neckers (All blaze orange with patrol color trim around the edges) are encouraged to wear them at all times. As SM I wear the troop blaze orange with white trim, my centennial jamboree at time, my WB necker, at times, and green SM tie at times. It all depends on my mood.

Then when you come to the monthly committee meeting with your report, you can let the committee know all the finances, all the activities and whether or not they are being financially supported, all the equipment needs of the troop/patrols, because you probably will eventually be working with the Troop QM as Treasurer as well. If you can take a lot of this paperwork, finances, communications, off the hands of the SM so all he has to do is work with the boys knowing all this is taken care of by you and your contacts with the boys, I for one as SM would welcome this with open arms. Eventually your example could also encourage the Advancement committee member to work with the boys on making sure everyone is advancing and keeping tabs on who needs what, etc. Advancement committee member may need to work with the WebMaster to have the advancement needs posted on the web contact. Maybe your Activity committee member would work with the PLC members coordinating with finances, advancements, and summer camp so the boys get the MB's they want, the advancement they need, and help with the finances that will surely take place. The goal of the program is to associate and coordinate with the adults the boys' needs, wants, and wishes. The committee members cannot be supportive leaders of the boys unless they are actively associating with them, i.e. making contact and staying in communication with them. Notice I didn't say anything about guiding, directing, mentoring, etc., just knowing what's going on and being there to help the boys be successful when they ask.

I was using "treats" as an extreme example. Of course Mommy is going to whine, but giving the better uniformed boys "perks" usually is subtly enough to get the point across that doing things right will be noticed in a positive way and if doing things incorrectly will be ignored and those positive things won't be coming your way. My boys know that I accept brownie points and extra effort and store them up for future reference/opportunities.

So this is why the Treasurer works closely with the Scribe. It's a shared responsibility at first until the parents learn to trust the boys wearing the POR patches. This goes directly back to the whole adult announcement: "We expect you boys to take on leadership, run your own show, make your own decisions, but in the end let it be known that we don't trust you with the really, really important adult things." If one doesn't truly trust the boys with leadership then they aren't teaching it well enough to the boys. It's a lot easier to do the adult management thingy where: "If you want it done right, you do it yourself." No leadership needed in that case. But if one is in the business of providing leadership training, they had better start doing it. If the boys can't handle it, maybe the problem lies in the effectiveness of the leadership training being taught. If one teaches poorly defined concepts of management posing as leadership, then we going to get poor leadership out of the boys. The problem starts and is perpetuated by the adults. I, too, wouldn't trust some of the boys having been taught poorly the responsibilities of leadership. As treasurer, not penny one would go in or out of the accounts without the Scribe at least knowing what's going on. He may never have to touch each penny, but he can still be responsible for knowing its whereabouts.

This all goes back to my earlier post about adults getting in there and messing around. NEVER GET CAUGHT HOLDING THE BAG! If one were to punish the boys for poor uniforming then everyone can blame the punishers. Situation A: Parent: "Why are you always late when I come to pick you up?" Johnny: "Mr. Stosh makes me stay after because I don't have scout socks on tonight." Yeah, right, I want to deal with that one...... Johnny didn't take responsibility for wearing socks and Mr. Stosh gets the blame for it. Situation B: Parent: "How come the other boys are staying afterwards and you're not?" Johnny: "All the boys who had full uniform get to stay and have a treat. I forgot to wear my scout socks." So, now the blame falls squarely where it belongs..... and definitely not on me.

@ I wasn't complaining directly about the thread in as much as making a comment about all this hassle surrounding service projects. Is an Eagle project a service project for hours, how about if this side of the street is public park and the other side is private property, do we get credit for both sides of the street or ... or .... or.... I was just just doing a walk down memory lane where the Scouts just did these things as a Good Turn and didn't have to minutely document them for advancement and council recognition. Kinda sad were this trail is leading....

With all this legalese concerning the service project hours and the credit garnered by them, it makes me long for the days of "Do a Good Turn daily."

A gentle reminder from a respected PL is best.

TAHAWK, I take it you've never [GASP] talked to my Ex, my children, my wife or anyone that has been around me for more than 5 minutes. I think the clinical term is Pan Syndrome.

There's nothing going on in the troop that adults can't make it worse.

It is the PL's responsibility to make sure his boys look good for flags, inspection or not. Going the extra mile only when one has to doesn't really solve any problems on an everyday basis. If the boys come up short, a gentle reminder to help him improve seems to work pretty well for my boys. This isn't to say that the occasional zipper problem after tucking one's shirt tail in isn't overlooked without a bit of "hazing". A few times of that and the problem disappears for quite some time No push ups, just a tease or two is all that is necessary.

Are we talking a gated community? If so, I think they have maintenance people that are expected to keep it neat and tidy. I'm thinking that there might be a nearby neighborhood area that could use a clean up, especially if there is an area that is a bit neglected.

If they follow Japan's processes, yes. They took on America's car industry and beat the snot out of them.

In Civil Air Patrol, we had the opportunity to get our gliders license once we turned 16. A couple of my buddies picked it up for fun, but without a glider, it was kinda spendy for the ROI. We did get a lot of air time. One of my pilots had me take the controls. "Just hold it steady." "Okay, just pull back the stick just a bit." "A little more...." "More..... "A bit more......" "Oops, what do ya think you're doing! WE'RE GONNA CRASH!" And where do you think I learned about having a sense of humor?

Check with the EAA pilots they can do a Young Eagle flight program as oriented to the Aviation MB. We did it and the kids all got in flight time. One of the nicest camporees the boys ever had.

The reason I follow the principles of: 1) Patrol Method 2) Servant Leadership 3) Rule #3 - Have fun 4) Adults drink coffee and do nothing else is because over the years, it produces the least amount of hassle to keep the program viable. 99% of the problems I have encountered over the past 45 years of working with youth is ADULTS! The kids are great, the adults are a pain in the a$$. Last week I went for the first time to a new church youth program I have been invited to work with. I get there and the one leader tells me I should do the Bible study part for the evening because I "should be able to handle it being a former pastor." Yeah right, thanks for the Lion's Den introduction to the kids. Well we get to the Bible study part. I picked the topic Servant Leadership. I had seen one of the kids helping another on crutches get her dinner and carry it over to the table for her. She was in the group so I singled her out for her leadership qualities, etc. and built on that for the message. After a half hour the Youth Director came in and was wondering why the kids weren't out playing games with the older kids. The kids told her they were having fun with the Bible study. It was supposed to only last 5 minutes. No one told me. They made me promise I would pick up where we left off next week. The other adult leader was amazed that the kids sat still and paid attention. He has them in Confirmation class and they don't behave that well for him. He wanted to know my secret, he tried for the whole half hour to figure it out. I told him, all I did was get the ball rolling and then got out of the way. When things started to slow down, I bumped it along. It was THEIR Bible study, not mine. Youth at this age see through adult manipulation almost instantly. They're good at it, it's their job! When an adult trusts them as a peer, they know that and appreciate it. They will return respect for respect given. That's probably why boy-led/run/controlled works for me. I give all kids that opportunity. Tonight I have a 30 minute presentation for 20+ high school students interested in starting a Venturing Crew. The DE said I should come prepared to tell them about what the Venturing Program is. Sorry, my 30 minutes will be focused on finding out what THEY WANT THE VENTURING PROGRAM TO BE. Big difference!