Stosh

We seem to spend a lot of time promoting and teaching the boy-led, patrol-method approach to scouting. We train our SM's and ASM's, our CC and MC's. and make sure all the I's are dotted and the t's crossed. and then we head out into the woods dragging along a bunch of parents who have not been oriented, trained, or, even a lot of times, a clue to what's going on other than they are expecting to have bonding time with their kid. We don't camp 300' apart so the parent in a fit of boredom hangs out with his kid and starts interfering, many times without knowing what the procedures are. I have had boys get out of camp clean up by calling a parent and pulling out of camp without even telling any of the adult leaders. My ASM came to me and said he couldn't find a whole patrol. No boys, no gear, nothing. After a few phone calls we found out the older boys didn't want to help the younger boys clean up the camp and got up early, called and had a parent give them a ride home. The parent had no idea she was being duped anymore than the scout leaders. How much assumption training has been done with the parents (and new scouters for that matter) when it comes to how the troop is being run? YPT doesn't cover the patrol-method very well, neither does committee member training or MBC training. All the Cub training avoids it. As a matter of fact SM/ASM training does not do well on covering it other than lip-service. So when we rant on our adults, maybe instead of having them sitting around being bored watching the boys have fun, they get some training on why they are bored and the boys are having fun. As SM I have spend a lot of time with my staff as well as my parents going over the program of the BSA (even the lip-service to the patrol method) and cover this with every parent that comes into the program. I explain that the more they interfere the less likely their boys is going to stay with Scouting so if they want to come out and console their boy when he gets homesick or has to run out to retrieve their star baseball player so he won't miss a game during the week of summer camp, they might want to consider saving the money and putting it somewhere other than in Scouts. They also get the flat out speech - if you don't want your boy to grow up and mature in the next few years and you want him to stay your precious little boy, don't sign him up for Boy Scouts. Because of this, I find that the parents I do have show up really don't mess with the boys when they are at activities. They sit in the back and remain silent, usually reading a book or playing with their cell phones on mute. Summer camp for the boys only has two adults from the troop with them. The SM and the ASM. Both the SM and ASM bring along 2-3 books to read. There are no others present. The invite is always open to have any parent sit in on any activity, some do and most don't. But what happens is that they only sit in and keep quiet. How many troops out there have training programs for the parents? And how many just have rules limiting what parents can and can't do and assume they are going to be automatically followed?

Historical reenactors have two problems: 1) heavy canvas and 2) long poles. Heavy canvas might fit okay in a pickup but no vehicle out there can handle 12' poles very well. They generally use a 2x4 of 1/2 lengths cut at matching angles then one end boxed with 3/8" plywood to be the female end slide the other pole in and secure with two wing nut carriage bolts. It ends up remarkably strong and still retains it's strength at the joint in the middle. Any ridge pole holding up a 12-16' wall tent will hold up a rain fly. Tents larger than that are solo poles with the edges securely anchored to hold the canvas taut.

Patience used to be a virtue, now like common sense it's merely a historical phenomenon.

It never ceases to amaze me how many adults one comes across that think they know what they are doing and really haven't the foggiest idea that what they are doing is really bad for the boys. Self deception seems to be running rampant in certain parts of the county and BSA is no exception.

So, how did you get the school in the winter?

They don't even do camp inspections at summer camp anymore. I don't think they had enough participation trophies.

Just checking to see if they meant the historical traditional where the boys picked their friends or the contemporary traditional where the adults picked them. If one were to actually get right down to the reality of most troops, there are very few "traditional" patrols out there because most troops have adult "guidance" influencing the processes somewhere along the way. Some more than others. It's just that by the very nature of BSA's program NSP Regular and Venturing seem to strongly suggest a layering of expertise based on experience and age.

It depends. My scouts have used the ax yard to get away from the pressure of the event. My scouts have used the ax yard to get out of doing their responsibility to the patrol. My scouts have used the ax yard to whittle. None of which is ax yard protocol and have nothing to do with safety. With all due respect, there are more safety issues in the food prep area than in the ax yard.

If BSA promotes New Scout Patrols, Regular Patrols and Venture Patrols, What is a Traditional Patrol?

When I teach my boys, "With all due respect...." it comes with the further instruction that they are empowered and can and should speak up when others, even those who appear to be in "higher authority", aren't playing by the rules. Adults stepping in, SPL being bossy, PL putting one's name on the duty roster for every meal all week of summer camp, etc. This isn't reserved for only the youth, it applies to SM's when ASM's feel he/she is coloring outside the lines. It applies to an adult seeing a scout not observing axe yard protocol, etc. Everyone above and below oneself deserves a courteous rebuke at times and this is how it's done..... "With all due respect"

I totally understand where you're coming from and as yet, common courtesy, my boys are instructed not to get down on the level of an errant person, but to stay above the fray and be polite even if someone else is screwing up royally and making a pain of themselves. A Scout is courteous even when others around them aren't. Mr. Smith might be new, might be whatever, one doesn't need to judge their motive, they are just not in the place they are supposed to be for good or bad. Like @@desertrat77 says, "With all due respect" is a proper and courteous means of entering into a non-personal possible confrontation allowing the offender an opportunity to step aside without being pushed. I dunno, maybe the new generation have redefined things in this new world far different than what I grew up in.

With any and all respect due to you and your position, I with all the respect I have for you, I must insist doing it my own way. One has to stop and understand the words in order to understand the meaning. Just because one hates the phrase and redefines it according to one's own interpretation, doesn't change it's meaning. "With my deepest love" I must insist on doing it my own way, does not mean "I want to love you, but right now I don't and my next sentence will be something that indicates I hate you." Just doesn't add up. @@Krampus when he says, "I've got this Mr. Smith,..." seems to be more push aside Mr. Smith with no respect intended. I see that as a bit more like, "I'm going to do it my way, please step aside." kinda feeling for me. Nothing wrong with that, sometimes adults need to hear that, but if one wishes to emphasize there is no ill feeling, I would stick with the "respect due to you" kinda feeling kinds of statements.

This is where I push my boys' leadership to the limits. Without POR, without anything other than pure leadership, lead! The coach doesn't play the game, the orchestra conductor makes no noise, the driver's ed teacher sits in the passenger seat. Yet they all lead. The boys say this is the most challenging part of leadership, but they all seem to figure it out and do great things "from behind the scenes". It's a real treat to watch. This is your challenge now @@blw2 you need to figure out how to lead from the back seat! The secret??? Take care of your boys, they will follow those that do! So will other leaders!

The council investigation is all that is necessary at this point. Make sure the scout finishes the MB and everything else other than the SMC and EBOR. Those can be challenged and the investigation by the council indicates that that process has begun.

One might go back in the records of the council to see if any former CO's had troops fold on them that might want to have one again. The church that CO's us took us on, was tickled pink to have us and then turned around and took on a Pack that was having difficulty with the school CO they were associated with. Their former units folded about 20 years back and an Eagle scout on the church council championed us right from the beginning. He had Eagled in the former unit and was thrilled to see it back up and running again.

Council strip, numbers, rank, Universal crest are the only things required. The rest is bling.

Gee, my boys use, "With all due respect, Mr. Smith...." all the time and we never have a problem. As far as "protecting" the boy from the 'real world out there' we do all we can to arm them to protect themselves. I guess it's a bit different for everyone. Granted it's not used very often, but it seems to be reserved for the parents that have difficulty with the boy-led process and find it necessary to try and usurp the boy's authority. It's a polite way of giving notice that the troop is boy-led. It's really no different than saying "I have this, Mr. Smith..." other than reaffirming that the comment is given with all respect for the adult and their position in the troop. It allows them an opportunity to save face and get a cup of coffee without a big to-do. By the way, "With all due respect, Mr. >>>>" is taught to my boys right from the beginning once they cross over into the NSP. Respect is given in the troop until the boy or adult demonstrates they don't deserve it. Kinda backwards from having to earn it, but it works for us.

One needs to look closely at the process. The parents brought the kids to the activity which began when they set foot on the island. Until then the parents drove the boys and paddled them out to the island. I don't care how the parents got them there, they could have ridden bikes, or they could have come on horseback. Not my problem. How is riding in Dad's canoe any different than riding his Dad's car? And even then this was way prior to 2008. But even with my Venturing Crew, the transportation to the meetings and activities were up to them and their parents. We had people coming in from 3 different states so car pooling was out of the question.

Ya, know. If one does the ziplock bag inside the trash bag inside the back pack routine, the back pack makes a great flotation device. I've had duffel bags keep over turned canoes loaded with heavy equipment from going to the bottom. With a lake and no current, a tote line would not be needed just float the pack across and swim pushing the pack. Otherwise, clip a strap to the tote line and push it across using the tote to keep things from drifting off.

You and your boy are a team of leaders, if he wants to stay with the troop and take care of his buddies by making it better, you need to protect him and give him the positive opportunity to step up and lead. In support of his efforts, it may end up your "job" to see to it the adults stay out of the way. The problem is not really the adults, the problem is the damage the adults are doing to the boys. The boys signed on to learn leadership, character maturity and being successful in life. That is the opportunity they are entitled to have. If the adults want to work on their problem of interfering, that's great, but they need to get out of the way and let the boys run THEIR program.

It's going to be pretty difficult to teach leadership when there are no leaders that know what leadership is. The adult that takes over the NSP and mandates what's going to happen at 4:00 am, is not taking care of anyone other than himself and his ego and his dominance attitude.

It's always more difficult to do it right than it is to just do it.

Yes, you are reading it correctly, and how one opens up a new adventure, new possibilities, new opportunities in a negative way is beyond me. I'd never use it, but if you could explain that to me, I would find it interesting.....

I carry my own Gaterade, so I don't worry about BSA thinks. My kids get water, I get Gaterade. I learned that Gaterade is 10 times better at getting me back on my feet and keeping me there than just water. This after a 10 mile hike in Civil War wool, with full pack in 100o+ heat. Buddy dumped some in my water cup and I couldn't believe how quickly it worked!

Some things are liability issues and I can sympathize with BSA on those things. Just up the insurance if they are worried. Some of the other things are in the politically correct arena and here's where the real crapola comes into play. Humans can't be targets for any projectile propelled by some kind of weapon. Having snow ball fights as a kid or using a water balloon bigger than a ping pong ball will lead to more aggressive behavior once the boy reaches adulthood. They could turn into a serial killer or worse. After all these could be gateway activities. Squirt guns lead to BB guns which lead to .22's which lead to WMD's.