Stosh

Oh, good, I'm glad we got that all cleared up. So a fillet knife? Is that a sheath knife or a food prep knife? And seriously folks! Why are we letting our boys put knives in the chuck boxes WITHOUT SHEATHES? Next time they reach in to get a knife, they could seriously cut themselves. THIS IS WHY I HAVE A KNIFE BLOCK ON MY COUNTER AND NO KNIVES IN DRAWERS! What's the lesson here?

Okay, my wife has informed me that bee honey is not bee poop, but bee spit. I stand corrected.

Interesting line of thought. PL runs the show for 5-7 other boys. He should have a pretty good handle on what's going on especially if his APL is actually functioning as his #1 right hand man and not sitting around just waiting for him to not come to the meeting so he can be boss. Most of the time they don't even do that much. Okay there's no need for any of the other POR's except in a supportive role. New boys show up so now everyone becomes TG? Or does one have 1 or 2 former DC's that can work with the boys to help get them oriented to the Boy Scout way of doing things in a patrol dedicated only for that purpose. (At least in the beginning.) Okay every patrol gets a QM and Scribe but with 5-6 patrols, having 5-6 patrol QM's digging through the storage shed at the same time is not always that efficient of a process, Doable, but messy. The paper work gets collected and some adult will need to step up to order everyone's rank patches, etc. but surely every patrol Scribe could do it for their boys so yes, that's doable too. Now what about all these other POR's. Maybe they're just busy work and extra hoops the boys have to jump through that make rank advancement seem to be a bit more challenging for the older boys and more advancement paperwork for the patrol Scribes. I can see these POR's as rather useless in the smaller troops of 2-3 patrol, maybe <25 boys in all but they start to get a bit more useful for the bigger troops. As I said, one Troop QM orchestrating a system of getting the right patrol equipment to each patrol would make life easier than 5-6 patrol QM's looking for their stuff. So the Troop QM will need to make sure the backpacking lightweight stuff is tended to with special care for the Venture patrol, and the Regular patrols will just need the same-old same-old, but maybe some extra time with the New Scout patrol will need to get up to speed with the equipment for his patrol. If the SPL is working with the Venture boys, he might be offering a bit more support than the Regular patrols, but he will need to focus along with the TG to get the PL of the New Scout up to speed. Whereas mixed groupings rely on all the patrol members to cover all aspects of patrol life, the adjunct POR's are specialists that will work directly with a group of boys to make sure everything is covered in the initial stages of the new patrol operation. So let's imagine the patrol is now gelling and doing pretty good for themselves and the "powers that be" whether adult or youth, decide to break the NSP up into all the other patrols. The NSP patrol leader now is in a patrol and he's not doing what he was trained to do, same for the NSP QM, Scribe, etc. They go from fledgling leaders to nothing for a year or two until the others in that patrol age out. I guess I just see to many small group dynamics being disrupted and I'd be the first to say a NSP for one year and then apple-cart-up-side-down mix and match into the other patrols is a really stupid process and will not work. That doesn't mean I'm against NSP, I'm just against how some troops interpret how they are to be used. Any tool used in a manner it was not designed to be used as will cause problems. NSP as a tool for program development is no exception to that philosophy.

I think you have overly assumed. Most of our early ranked Eagles get JASM, then bored to death because they can't be involved the way they used to and mature out by 15 or 16. The fun and adventure is gone.

It has always amazed me that so many adults grab their chests and gasp in horror whenever we talk about sheath knives, They are dangerous! They are unsafe, Boys haven't been trained in dealing with fixed blade knives. And when all the smoke has settled the boys all go back to their campsites, dig around blindly in their chuck boxes for the unsheathed butcher knife and start hacking away at the potatoes for supper. The guy next to him is wielding a fillet knife on the carrots because he couldn't find a paring knife, and on one thinks there's anything wrong with this picture. If the Cubs are expected to put up a whittling yard and the Boy Scouts are to put up an ax yard, maybe someone ought to put up a kitchen yard so that 6"-8" knives have a proper place to be wielded.

What's the rationale behind the QM handing the funds and not the Scribe?

I suppose one needs to do this when they don't have functional POR's that will work with the NSP's, i.e. SPL, QM, ASPL, TG, Scribe and QM for starters. That's six boys right there that have the time to work with the needs of the NSP and the Venture patrols. Take them out of the picture because they don't function, one is correct, it is a recipe for disaster. All the mixed patrols do is cover for the non-functioning POR's.

The Committee works out a budget for the troop. It is approved by the PLC. No monies go into any patrol accounts until the basics are covered. Instead what we have is thousands of dollars earmarked for boy's personal activity while the troop goes broke. At the end of the year the troop balance is $0.00, the bank account holds the patrol funds. New year. new budget, all monies coming in go to the troop budget until it's covered and then to the patrol accounts. If the troop suddenly finds itself in financial difficulty, the patrols have backup funds to keep the troop solvent. If the troop is having financial difficulty, the PLC needs to know immediately.

How is this any different than the 14 year old Eagle that disappears the day after the ECOH?

Well, we know know where @@Krampus's dues go. I would have NEVER thought of that for my troop. Yeah, right.

We're dealing with bee poop here, of course it belongs under I&P!

I don't see any bears, snakes or mosquitoes on the patch... These are Webelos boys, ya know!

So what happens to all the paperwork necessary to keep track of the boys that forget their $1 or don't show up for a couple of weeks. There are so many other important procedures a Scribe could be involved with other than this petty cash "lesson". I would leave it up to the PL's to decide if there's going to be a Patrol account and dues. Money raised by the boys does not go into their personal accounts, but into a patrol account that can be used to collect dues as well. The the PL, APL, Scribe, and QM can meet on a regular basis and evaluate funding needs for the patrol and are free to use the money in their Patrol account for whatever they want. This will encourage finances to be held at the patrol level, evaluation of need will be within the patrol and all the money is held in the troop account under the running balance of the patrol. If a patrol wants dues, they set the amount and that's the end of the discussion. If they don't want dues they can set that up too. It's up to them to set up their lesson and learn it, not the adults. It sounds like the adults are fundraising off the boys in the troop. Pretty hard to justify that by collecting $1 and tossing it in the general fund of the troop. Totally no accounting of the funds and as far as the boys know, it just goes down a rat hole never to be seen again. There's a lesson in that too. It's called adult rules that don't make much sense.

@@Beavah ! So after a 2+ year hiatus you think you can just come waltzing back in here and walk away with the Grand Prix? I would say that from all accounts here, your absence at the campfire has been about 0%, the big threads? No participation ribbon for you! So, where does that leave us, Young Man? Sitting here seriously thinking it's great to see you back on the forum! Welcome back, we missed you!

Welcome to the forum @@canchos I know that there are a few patches that if they are really well done can be used by scouts for trading. After everyone has their patch, have a bin at the Scout Shop of left over patches that the boys can buy for a song and dance so they have something to trade when they go to out-of-council events.

@@JasonG172 Have you given this scout an opportunity to hear your concerns and why you would not want to be on his EBOR? I would think it would fit nicely into one's taking care of their boys to give him a heads up.. Kinda goes hand in hand with being trustworthy too. Does one have the Scout's back? I guess if I too wouldn't want to be around at the last minute when someone drops a bomb on this kid and I knew, or at least suspected, I could have done something earlier to help him out. i.e. A Scout is Helpful.

By the way, welcome to the forum! I didn't realize that until I wrote my comments. This is a tough call as a parent. Your son is stuck between a rock and a hard spot and is expected to make a mature decision that will have an impact on his social life for the next few years. Keep it in mind that as a parent you can still have some control of the situation depending on how you decide along with your son. He's going to appear to be quite immature to you as a parent, and maybe it is true maybe it isn't. Always hard to tell when you're the parent. The Cub leader is pushing for early cross-over, which takes a lot of choice out of your son's hands and he doesn't want to get left behind by his buddies either. That means one can't shop around for other troops, you're stuck with the one the buddies are going to. Once one goes there, then the choice of different programs (NSP of all boys oriented together or blended patrols where the other boys in the patrol work the orientation. Of course this could also toss the "sticking with one's buddies" in jeopardy as well if all the new guys are doled out to different patrols. One might want to check that all out. If what one thinks is the ideal for their child is not in the setup of the various troops in the area and all the dynamics don't fall precisely the way one wants them to, then the decision needs to be made, which if any of these programs can I find that will work second best for my son. If one cannot answer that, I would check out other programs that may work better for your son. If your son is into the outdoors and camping, and it's important for to your son, you may need to roll up your sleeves and put your pack on and take him into the woods yourself. Sometimes, that's the best anyway.

Okay, here's where my heresy shines. Every rule out there has a purpose, but sometimes that purpose does more to hurt than to heal. Yes, I break rules so that people heal. I break rules to create opportunity for growth and development, and when it comes to breaking rules, I don't do it fairly across the board. Every scout is different. Every scout is unique. Every scout has different abilities. Every scout has different passions and needs. How does one make one rule that works for everyone! In a larger troop like yours @@Krampus, I can see where some rules are necessary to maintain some sort of order. I guess I'm a bit more lucky in that I can custom fit my "helping other people at all times" by making adjustments to actually help rather than hinder the opportunities for the boys. I showed up early for my scout meeting last night. A boy who hadn't been coming for the past few weeks showed up early and went over to the piano and started to play (we meet in a church). He has serious family and emotional problems but when he started to play I just didn't have the heart to tell him to stop. There wasn't any need, he knew his way around a piano, played great, and I was really enjoying it.... until my ASM came in and told him that the scouts are not to be messing with other things in the room. After the meeting my ASM and I had a talk. I think I might get a serenade or two in the future. A scout who simply pounds on the keyboard because he wants to make as much noise as possible is not going to get the same reaction as the scout that sits down and starts playing "The Entertainer" from memory because he loves music. It's just another way one goes about taking care of his people. From your story, you obviously know what I mean.

That's one of the big issues that face units where the troop alumni don't move on to greener pastures, but stay local. They have a real problem going from Veteran SPL/JASM to 15th ASM. "Now that I'm an adult, I get to run the show like the other adults have been doing all along!" while at the same time can't figure out why they can't camp with their patrol buddies anymore.

There are those that get Eagle for themselves and those that get Eagle so they can "help other people at all times."

I just think it might be more fair to the boys that if the adults are going to be making up rules that aren't part of the BSA protocol that they inform the boys BEFORE the stuff hits the fan. I have had too many adults making up rules along the way that more often than not I find myself siding with the youth over the adults! Too many adults today treat the adolescent as an inferior and surprisingly it is unique to our culture. In some places in the world an 18 year old is a middle aged man. In our society, he's still a kid until he moves out of his parents basement at age 40.

Careful now, people will begin to call you a heretic too for suggesting there is a difference between Eagles. I for one have felt proud of all my Eagles for the reasons you identify. One of my Eagles just got accepted into a prestigious college because of his undergraduate work on a national program of which he is a co-author. This is the scout I talked about that needed an additional 6 months of leadership before I recommended him for Eagle. By the way the prestigious college that wants him is Cambridge, the one in England. He turned out to be a Real Eagle after all. Eagle Mills just don't seem to generate the same reaction for me as the boys that do it right.

Oh, but Eagle Scouts with all that Scouting under their belt are the best recruits for adult leadership.... Give me Billy Bob back woods aficionado with his pickup truck, any day. I have seen some fantastic Real Eagles and then there are the other Eagles. The label on the outside doesn't guarantee the contents on the inside.

@@Eagle94-A1 I think that much of what your son is identifying is why BSA uses the terminology it does in describing the different patrols. I think that a troop of all Regular Patrols might get buy but blending 6th grade kids with high school kids does a disservice to both the groups. Thus the New Scouts Patrol and the older boy Venture Patrols. Obvious the New Scout Patrol has a totally different focus because of it's special needs to bond together and gel as a group of boys coming from a unique non-Boy Scout situation. Either they have had no scouting experience or they have had Cub Scouting. Neither of which prepares them for orientation into the Boy Scout level program. So maybe an older PL will step in and help, maybe a qualified functional TG would be necessary, to have a few of the older boys come out of the Regular Patrols to help out with the new guys on the block. Then one has the Regular Patrols. I would assume this would be also referred to as the Traditional Patrols, but definition might vary from one person to the next. This would be when the New Scouts Patrol has been oriented, has their feet on the ground, a few rank advancements under their belt, a week at summer camp, and they have had an opportunity to gel. So the PL returns back to his Regular Patrol, because his POR is fulfilled or whatever, he could stay on if he wanted to. The TG does the same, he's done with his duties for that patrol and can go back, too. But if the boys really like him, he could stay on now that the New Scouts Patrol gets changed in title only to a Regular Patrol. They aren't the new guy on the block anymore. They're now regular guys like the rest. So then when the boys get up to 14-15 years of age, they did their helping out the NSP's and getting their rank advancement done in the Regular Patrols, but now 4 times at the same summer camp isn't enough pizazz anymore and they want more. Well there's no younger boys in their troop to worry about so they can now focus on the level of activities that befit the older guys. They don't have to leave any younger boys behind while they go off to BWCA and they don't have to go to summer camp anymore unless it be on the other side of the country. These boys are the boys that will do a 50 miler on a 3-day weekend of canoeing or biking on a regular basis, not just a one-time-only thing to get a patch. Maybe they'll just take a week and go fishing and hang out with each other for a week. Maybe they'll go to Washington DC to check out the sites without having to worry about getting to Jambo. Yes there's a bit of interplay between the different Patrols, but the New Scouts and Venture patrols need special attention because of their unique situation. So just as an example, assume that one is the PL of a "Tradtiional" Patrol. There are 7 other boys. One in 6th grade, one in 7th grade, one in 8th grade, one in 9th grade one in 10 grade, one in 11th grade and one in 12th grade. So everyone sits down and they are gong to plan their summer week of scouting. Well some of the boys are too young for Philmont, Northern Tier, Sea Base and Jambo, so those items are off the table. In order to maintain the integrity of the patrol, it has to resolve itself down to the lowest common denominator. The boys will all be going to summer camp at the council camp.... except the older boys who will find an excuse to save their money for the "fumes". So as another example, assume that one is the PL of a Venture Patrol where everyone is 15-17 years of age. What options are on the table for ALL THE BOYS IN THE PATROL? No need to ad hoc the patrol with others, no need to leave any patrol buddies behind, everyone is equally trained and can handle the big treks. All of a sudden the "fumes" seem to dissipate rather quickly. I learned how this works in my adult-led troop I started with . We traveled half way across the country to attend a non-council camp for fun. When we got there the SM signed up ALL THE OLDER BOYS to go off site for the special adventures open to the older boys. All the young boys stayed in camp with absolutely no youth leadership. The SM and 1 ASM had a blast, and the other 3 ASM's that got left babysitting the boys for a week. When we got home I found a new troop. That troop also lost about 1/3-1/2 of their young boys, too.