Stosh

With patrols of relatively same aged boys, one doesn't need concern themselves with such things, but with smaller troops it can't be helped. There's a big difference between setting it up as a problem and not having control by virtue of the troops age make-up.

There's a lot of us on this forum that would....

While I don't think this SM is correct in his methods, I do think ScoutSon should step up his game and take charge of his progress towards Eagle. He needs to complete everything that doesn't involve the SM including the beneficiary signature and records from council to audit his progress in rank and wrap up his MB. He needs to have everything BSA requires completed and ready for the SM signature. Set an appointment at a specific time and place for him to review and sign and be done with it. If at that point the SM refuses, find a SM that will and for $1 transfer over to his troop for the signature. If this were a business transaction between professional adults this would have been cleared up a long time ago. If one can't do business with one vendor, there's another out there that is willing to. One cannot be making up the rules to keep an Eagle from a scout, It is at that point when everything but the signature is complete that it gets taken to the Council. If that fails, I'm sure there's a SM out there that is willing to take on a good scout for $1.

Some snakes are venomous, if cooked properly, none are poisonous.

There are certain protocols that people are trained to follow in an earthquake. Same for tornadoes, even so for snakes, and bears. Even the people of Alaska will clue one in on how to deal with moose. BWCA people have had bad experiences with the moose there. Simply showing up in the woods with a canister of bear spray doesn't guarantee anything other than a heavier pack. Encountering a bear is the wilderness is no big deal. I have encountered them in my back yard and I didn't run out and buy bear spray. I just make sure my garbage cans were secure, I carry my 9mm and life goes on. My chances of meeting up again with this neighborhood is slim to none because I sing and make a lot more noise when I'm in the woods of my back yard. If I can make life miserable enough with all the noise, they'll seek more serene pastures in the neighbor's backyard. Now it's his problem.

I wouldn't say Eagles aren't trainable, most people are. The problem with Eagles is they first have to be untrained, then trained. Takes a bit longer to get them up to speed.

Be careful here... according to Youth Protection guidelines, you shouldn't have 11 year olds tenting with 17 year olds: "Should be avoided" is not the same as "prohibited". Mixed patrols might have a problem with that.

In 2000 when I was at Philmont that wasn't the case. A couple of boys ended up in the hospital and in our 100+ trek, we came across 4 bear and 5 traps. The first night of base camp the boys on the Tooth of Time were cleared out at 2:00 am and they had to hike back to base camp in the dark. It was not a good year for bear. Making blanket statements about recent history might not be very productive when the very next year one has a whole new situation ahead of them. Who really knows when an off year will rear it's ugly head.

Too many assumptions seem to carry over with "former scouts", especially Eagles. There is no litmus test to sort things out either.

If the SM and CC are doing it correctly, what's the big deal if the council wishes to investigate? There's nothing I'm doing that wouldn't stand up to a council audit. As a matter of fact I have the council watching over my shoulder because what I do seems to be things they are interested in knowing more about and want other units to consider. 1) New troop heavy emphasis on patrol method where boys are making it happen. 2) Boy Scout run AOL program to facilitate the Webelos to Boy Scout transition. 3) Middle school recruiting for Boy Scouts, not just grade school for Tigers. 4) Public recruiting at various businesses in the area. 5) Starting a regional Venturing Crew rather than a whole series of smaller ones. 6) Revamping the structure of the UC program to focus on units in difficulty rather than spreading out the seasoned UC's on units that are running smoothly. These are the different foci I have promoted in the past 3 years in the council and they have been attentive and wanting quarterly updates on the progress shown. They come and visit a lot when I'm late with my reports. More power to them, the more they come and see what I'm doing the less I have to report. Am I always following the rules? Maybe not all the little ones, but if there is progress and measurable success in these efforts, they don't seem to really care.

Growing up and being independent in our society is contrary to the way parents are inclined to act. Their kids are to be athletically gifted just like Dad and be able to surpass his achievements. They are to be intellectually gifted that if they don't make valedictorian, they at least come in well over a 3.5 GPA. The are to be socially BFF with the parents so that they will never want to leave the basement apartment. If the kids get too independent and self sufficient, they may leave home, establish a life of their own and never come back to visit. All effort is made to avoid that possibility. All the theoretical character building in the BSA program runs counter to all that. Is it any wonder parents, deep down, want to sabotage that while still allowing the boys to have some fun along the way? Their precious little boy needs to stay their precious little boy even after he turns 18 in many cases. This is especially true for broken homes when the parent is looking at a future foreshadowing severe loneliness in their declining years. They have been abandoned by their spouse, but they'll hang on to their children instead. Not really all that healthy for the future of those kids. So how do we present this program in light of these factors?

I remember people showing up for the Webelos outdoor training having stopped by the local Walmart and picked up a tent, sleeping bag and mess kit. These were people who were complaining about having to take the class and sleep in a tent overnight. The class part was okay, but they were expecting to take the boys camping and never have done it themselves. Hopefully things are changing. yet again. I quit teaching when the council buckled and started doing Webelos without the camping expectation.

Sounds like once one finishes 5th grade they can join Venturing..... but they may not be eligible to join Boy Scouts..... Or maybe not either,..... or maybe both......

Starting a rocket stove is a lot different than starting a campfire. A lot easier than starting the propane stove in the winter time. Lot quicker than a campfire.

Every year I do YPT after having had a background check to get into scouting, Every other year I do YPT, Every time I change adult positions, I get a background check and now Venturing YPT every other year. Every time I connect up with a church youth group, I get a background check, and every time I take that group on an extended trip I get another background check. One would think that after 45 years of this, they would have a better system. But they don't No big deal. Not my money, not my problem. Any youth organization that requires me to pay for my own background checks gets passed by and there have been plenty of them over the years. If the state adopts it's own certification and BSA doesn't pick up the tab on it. I'm out of the scouting business immediately. Same for the churches and other community youth programs I work with. I'll be down to volunteering for the Salvation Army and Red Cross only, but that can keep me busy too. Red Cross has youth programs as well. And by the way, there was a background check to work with the Red Cross too. I'm waiting for a background check on bell ringing. Haven't seen anything on that yet. This summer I'll be doing volunteer work for the community garden, I don't think there's a background check for pulling weeds...

It is well known that I have and currently work with a new troop, new crew and a new church youth program. I can run them basically all the same. I am not restricted by male/female issues of the troop, I am not restricted and it doesn't cost me anything like it is in the crew, and with the church group, I don't have a ton of watergun, type restrictions. The kids want laser tag they get laser tag, etc. So which program is the easiest to work? It ain't the troop. By the way, the person who corralled me to work with the church youth group is an Eagle Scout. (his only child is a girl in the group) Go figure, he knew my SM background and that's why I got tapped out for the job and I'm not even a member of that church.. Oh, by the way the church group pulls in 25-30 youth per week, about the same size as my one troop at it's highest. My Crew is pushing that number too, but not my troop. That still continues to struggle.

If money is collected from the scout personally, there is nothing in the IRS rulings that say the scout can't spend it anyway he may wish. It's his own account that he has funded out of his resources and was not gotten through any charitable process. It would be no different than if the boy put the money in the bank and then pulled it out when needed for scouting. It just makes the pulling out and paying a bit easier, a journal entry rather than running to the bank and waiting in line. If it requires $50 registration, etc. for the boy each year, there's nothing in the book, BSA or IRS that says the boy can't set aside at his own discretion, $50 of his own money in his ISA. When registration rolls around there's no lump sum, no installment plan, no weekly or monthly dues, just a journal entry and it's over and done with until next year. So the boy heads out to shovel walks, gets $10 and puts it in his ISA for next year. This is not charitable income through fund raising for the troop, this is the boy's own personal money held in trust by the troop treasury. When the boy leaves the troop, he is entitled, no questions asked, to have HIS money back. Of course if the CO goes bankrupt or the troop folds, he gets his money. If the troop uses that money for any reason it is stealing from the boy.

Never used JASM position. Only for a short time ever used an SPL (when we went to 4 patrols. 25+ boys). When that boy aged out, the membership dropped as well and the SPL position was done away with. PL's picked up SPL duties as needed as they decided. The boys always figured that with a functional APL, there was really no need for an SPL. My Eagle scouts always tended to stay in the PL position, one of my Eagles became a permanent TG for the new scouts. Why get these boys all trained for a job and then not let them have at it? It is also important to note that the boys who are Eagle AND PL's are there and stay there at the directive of the patrol, not because of their rank, honor or prestige. They earn it and they have to keep earning it to keep it. Over the years I have found that PL replacements come from the patrol APL, QM or Scribe POR's, and not because of rank. It's kinda interesting to see how the boys made the decisions regarding leadership when the patrol method is implemented and the adults don't have a say in it. I don't think the boys even know what a JASM is supposed to do and working with the SM instead of being with buddies isn't much of an honor in their book.

FYI, my machine is working just fine bold Italic Underline Tab drops me out of the edit screen. I think it has always done that. I don't remember, I generally use double spacing between paragraphs. Indents do work however and will keep the indent. So, maybe it's just your keyboard if the rest chime in as okay. You didn't happen to spill your camp coffee on the keyboard????

Out of all the SM's and ASM's I have worked with only one former eagle with 2 palms ever sabotaged the patrol method program. He took over the troop and ran it the way his eagle mill troop ran things. Since then I have had Eagle parents helping out, but none on my staff. If one comes along that's different, I'll reconsider, but no one's waiting in the wings any time soon. Everyone gets equal billing when working with the troop.

I always thought this to be part of the training once the basics are covered. I don't think I have ever heard a parent tell me or any of my staff, "Well, no one told me!" Ever since that parent came and pulled a patrol out of a campout early, that has been normal operating procedure for my troops.

@@gumbymaster One has to understand the rules completely. Failure to respond is vague and inconclusive, but sounds good on paper. A medical doctor comes across a car accident. What tools does he have to perform at a level of competence he is used to? Doesn't need to any more than call in the accident to police. Every EMT knows to have gloves and self-protection due to blood-borne hazards, An off- duty nurse returning home doesn't have access to self-protection, doesn't need to respond and put herself in jeopardy either. Just like the Good Samaritan Laws, the individual can still determine whether or not they will get involved and if sued for getting involved or not getting involved, what's the difference? If sued for getting involved runs the risk of negligence, not getting involved might be an acceptable professional decision. As I mentioned before anyone can get sued for any reason. Good Samaritan Laws do not cover negligence regardless of training, and as any professional will attest to, protection for self takes precedent over others at all times.

@@Sentinel947 One also has to take into consideration that for 7 years that scout was trained to lead, not necessarily teach and now that the role has changed from leading to teaching to lead, this is a whole new ballgame for that Eagle ASM. For 7 years he was taught to lead, now he has to acquire a taste for camp coffee and let the next boys lead. I'm not totally sold on Eagles making good ASM's without some untraining along the way.

If the boys need something to remember from one week to the next, assign a rank advancement requirement to learn or do.

There are a lot of parents who think that unless the SM is meddling in the affairs of the boys he isn't doing his job! I have been chastised by parents who see their son struggling with a challenge and I'm standing around with a cup of coffee in my hand jaw-jacking. This is where proper adult/parent training comes into place.