Stosh

@@Beavah I think the issue here is with all the other functional leadership positions out there, why aren't the older Eagle scouts doing these jobs. An ASM in our troop is basically a 2nd person for 2-deep requirements. They teach nothing, they get involved in nothing, they are supportive of the SM and his role in teaching and supporting the boys. The ASM doesn't do the teaching unless he/she is a MBC as well. I generally don't have much "work" for my ASM the way it is, having another boy around doing nothing is kind of a waste in my unit. He'd be better off being a PL, APL, QM, et. and actually having something to do. It's kind of an unwritten rule that the ASM adult is to not do what the scouts can and should be doing for themselves. An Eagle scout needs to be stepping up his game and becoming an ASM isn't stepping up anything in my troops. Being a PL is the top dog and PL of the Venture patrol would be more fitting for a scout than JASM. By the way I had one Eagle do the TG POR for the new guys. Fantastic opportunity for the Eagle and he did remarkably well that the NSP developed their own PL and APL from their own membership. I was really impressed with what he could do with the new guys.

Maybe I don't run with that crowd nor did any of my kids..... What does BSA say about it? Anything? By the way, the issue is going camping, not smoking pot or drinking alcohol. We're talking doing something which is totally legal.

That's strange because I have had 3 of my kids go through school, involved in academics, sports and music and never heard of such a rule. It it was legal in the eyes of the law, the school and it's personnel had no say so in family affairs. The school tried to interfere in my family situation once and after a civil law suit was filed in the courts, the school apologized and nothing ever came of it. If one is going to be making up rules that aren't part of the organizations policies, then they're pretty much left out hanging in the wind. Others may have more stringent school policies, but not in my neighborhood. I have lived for an extended period of time in 4 different states and have never come across this issue before.

Asking a SM if he will give credit for a campout as a patrol and he says no he will not give credit is not the same as willful disobedience. One must remember that a SM's dictates do NOT over ride parental consent. . "With or without parental approval, this was an unapproved scouting activity. It was willful disobedience." The minute the SM said no, it was no longer a scouting activity. Since when does everything a boy does at this age having registered for scouts constitute an infringement into everything he does and it has to pass the SM's muster or he gets kicked out. Please cite the G2SS or any other BSA policy to support this SM myth. I asked my Mrs. about what she thought of this and having raised for kids of her own, she thought that the SM should mind his own business, that he had no authority to dictate family policy to any scout.

An interesting topic came up in another forum and I became very curious as to how other units handle the situation. I commented that as a youth, with parental permission, my buddies in the troop/patrol would often go camping on our own. It was mentioned that if scouts were to do that today, they would be kicked out of the troop according to one comment. Other than for legal issues, grand theft auto, bank robbery, etc. and gross non-adherence to the Scout Oath and Law, what issues would be grounds for removing a scout from the program? In light of government overreach in recent years, one right now where parents are under fire from school administrators for having a "Jesus Lunch" for high school students in a public park near the school, etc. And yes, I have valid testimony that there are far worse intrusions than these by schools and governmental officials just about every day in the newspapers. How long before draconian BSA policies draw a PR nightmare for the program? Or is the BSA allowed to set parental standards for its youth membership?

Sounds like one has some serious nanny state rules that go beyond even state law in your neck of the woods. I guess I wouldn't want to be living there. If the cops ain't showing up at your house, no one really cares what one does. We had 5 boys in my high school that played driveway basketball together since early childhood. Lets just say when they got to high school they went to state together 4 times and took state championship 3 of those times. No one really whined about the fact that after school these boys played b-ball in their driveway or at school on off hours. In our state parents can serve wine to their children even in restaurants and bars. There is a Twilight Zone in our state that once that person turns 18 when they become an adult, and until they are 21 they can't drink. Go figure. I guess it's a matter of tolerance and minding one's own business when it comes to school and extra curricular activities in my neighborhood, Has been for 50 years since I was a kid and hasn't changed much since then. If a bunch of boys got together and went camping on their own and the SM kicked them out of the troop because of that interpretation of CO policy, They'd get picked up in a heart beat in the troop down the street. I wouldn't have any problems with taking them in. Oh, by the way, I would be truly interested in knowing where in the BSA policy statements this forbidden.

Yeah, 50 years ago when I was in scouts we had a lot of units that were not stable, responsible and active with their CO's like they are today. A scout that goes camping with parent's permission with his buddies is grounds for removal from the troop? Really? Even when the parents drive them out to the campsite? Seriously? How far reaching is the adult control in some of these troops that one is a member of when they can over-rule parental decisions? We've had Cub Scout parents ask on this forum that if their Little Johnny is having a birthday campout in the back yard, can it count for a Cub Scout "outing"? I would seem from the answer that not only is it forbidden, but he runs the risk of getting kicked out of Cub Scouts! There is obviously something I'm missing in the previous posts somewhere along the line. There is a world of scouting and then there's the world of a boy's life. Sure, the Oath and Law are carried over into the world of a boy's life, but that's about it. They do not have the right to be another parent in a child's life and make them toe the line when it comes to Troop Rules in the privacy of their familial home.

So do I, it's helping every scout who's finding life difficult and opportunity to succeed after they have tried their best and can't seem to overcome the injustices in the world alone. What kind of a reputation would I maintain if the scout in this tread came to me asking for help and I sent him on his way with nothing more than a "word of advice"? There's a whole world of people out there that I have "never met" that are in need of help. When I "help other people at all times", it includes them as well, not just the one's I happen to know. My Chartered Organization is a church and they view my work as their mission and ministry, so the reputation is important to me to maintain as well.

There's really no special skill or talent or even insight into picking leadership qualities out of young people, It's just how well does one nurture any vestiges of in the youth so they have an opportunity to develop it along the way. By the way "self-fulfilling prophesy" in the psychological sense means the SM when he identifies Eagle material he will give extra effort and benefit to those he judges worthy at the expense of others. It doesn't refer to anything the scouts do to self-fulfill. I have seen SM's do this with the "pet Scouts" and they always seem to do better than others. The others get the left-over crumbs of his attention. I even saw a couple of scouts that had to leave the troop where I was ASM because the SM had it out for them and he said, they would never deserve Eagle, kinda like the SM in this thread. They simply went over to another troop and both Eagled within 6 months.

I sure hope that wasn't a "self-fulfilling prophesy" dynamic working with that SM. I wonder what happened with the boys he deemed weren't Eagle material? Did they get the same attention from this guy? @@qwazse We did this kind of thing all the time when I was in scouts. Every time the SM told us we couldn't be going out camping at such 'n' such a place, we said, "Okay." Then we went to the parents and asked them for a ride out to such 'n' such a place and told them when we needed to get picked up. My Dad would be kinda upset with us when we did that because he was never invited.... No adults allowed. I mean, seriously! What kind of trouble could we come up with other than over fish out daily limit and eat it before the ranger found out. If the SM said yes to any of these shenanigans, we got camping credit for it. Otherwise, we didn't. We didn't care. Maybe that's why none of us ever got Eagle. We did, however, camp right up into the summer after graduation before we all went our separate ways in life. I can say the 7 of us got more nights of camping than any scout in the troop. Those were good times.

A lot of the early commissioned literature of the BSA uses the term frequently. That's where I first came across it. I have also found reference to it in pre-BSA literature that sparked an interest in BSA commissioning certain authors to write stories for the scout to be reading. I believe it was one of Percy Keese Fitzhugh's Westy Martin series books that talks about Westy going out west and is all excited about meeting some famous Indian scout that he could visit with and learn some great things to take back home to the boys in New Jersey. Well he gets out there and quickly realizes that this guy is just a publicity seeker making money off his reputation as a "scout" and is not really a scout as Westy experienced it. Kinda like coming to the realization that not all those who call themselves scouts are Real Scouts. And yes, I have used that term as well. I find it rather ironic that people today get upset when there are those around who seem to identify Real Scouts and Parlour Scouts when it's some kind of recent development in the scouting program. Sorry, but the problem of selfish and self-less scouts has been around since the very beginning. There are those that join the program for reasons other than what it was intended. I guess it's just going to always be that way.

The point I was making and probably not very clearly was: no one either understands what a JASM does or doesn't care. There's no mention of it when discussing POR's, no mention of it at U of Scouting, no mention of it in any training, no mention of it at roundtables, no mention of it a UC meetings. and the list goes on and on describing the vacuum of the impact it makes in our part of the country. Because of that I'm thinking it would probably end up a "make it up as you go" kind of position as long as it stays out of the way of the operation of the troop. At best it is a lateral connection in the traditional pecking order of most troops with the JASM attached more to the SM than to the leadership of SPL -> PL kind of a positioning. What role that position plays on the PLC is vague or non existent. I'm thinking that most around here, if polled, would say the JASM is the Eagle scout who's done it all and wants to hang around the troop until he ages out. It gives him kind of a non-functioning "honorary" kind of position with no real expectations. After all, they aren't doing it for rank advancement POR so there's no need to think the functionality is all that important to even measure. With the way my troop is set up with the PL's running the patrol method, most of my older boys strive for the few PL positions or at least a spot on the leadership corps level. Some just sit back and ride it out, going camping and not worrying too much about it.

In the 30 years I have been working in the Boy Scout end of scouting, I have never met or even seen a scout wearing a JASM patch.

See! My PL's are good for something after all!

It always surprises me the number of people who will subject themselves to the Boy Scout program and gripe that there's no girls in the program. What part of BOY Scout program are we missing here? It has always been my belief that people who want to co-ed a all girl or all boy program are simply jealous that their opposite sex child will miss out on a great program instead of making one of their own. I am an avid outdoors person not because of scouts, not because of church, not because of school, not because of the YMCA or sports, or karate, but because my family was. My wife was a Daisy Scout for one year. She's more outdoors minded than even I am and her family didn't camp. She grew up in a large city and didn't want any part of that for her life. Neither of us are involved in scouting because we want to change it. I just spent the last two days building a kayak trailer for the Mrs. and I. If the BSA program changes into something other than what pleases us to volunteering for, we'll just volunteer for the Red Cross and do more kayaking with adult groups which is a lot less hassle than dragging along a ton of little kids.

If everyone is so bent out of shape about me as a SM signing off on an Eagle rank advancement when I hardly know the boy, why is it still acceptable that an EBOR with three people even I as SM don't know get to check off for my Eagles they probably have never met nor talked to before the EBOR. I would seriously like to know the difference. From where I sit, everyone should be on the same page of getting this boy his earned rank and quit playing petty games laced with macho testosterone. Help other people at all times! ? -> That SM needs to be volunteering somewhere else and his CC can go with him.

Seriously? If I tie it left over right, right over left or right over left, left over right, or the bunny comes out of the hole, runs around the tree and jumps back in the hold, everyone should know that that isn't a square knot! It's a reef knot. Until my boys figure out how to tie the square knot instead of the reef knot, they'll never get beyond Scout rank in my troop.

I wonder if Cliff Clavin was an Eagle Scout?

Yeah, that works too.

He sends me his records, his documentation on his project, gets on the phone with me an helps me to understand he has jumped through every BSA hoop properly? Yes, I wouldn't hesitate to sign. I would work with and support any scout came to me looking for help. I tend to "help other people at all times!" and that also means I don't judge their situation, just help.

A Scout is Kind. A Scout is Friendly. A Scout is Helpful. I would.

Who'da thunk! A bee with a sweet tooth!

@@MattHiggins brings up an important dynamic. One must always be vigilant of the accusations one passes around. For example, what gets construed as modern snobbery may may in fact be nothing more than historical referencing. I do believe the expression Parlour Scout has been used in scouting since the early days of the 20th Century. And the original British spelling may indicate it was used even prior to BSA or had non-American origins. Most people of today would need to look up the word to even know what a parlor was. Because the term is now somewhat obsolete, the term Paper Scout might be used to better illustrate the situation in a more modern context. At different times in the history of scouting the necker used to be worn over the collar, other times, under, some times, the collar was tucked inside the shirt so it wouldn't interfere with the necker and some uniforms don't even have collars. So we can discuss until everyone is blue in the face as to what is "right". Seriously? As far as feeling bad about people coming upon these discussions goes, one always has to remember that someone well versed in the skills of the outdoors does not make them a snob. Someone well versed in the policies and procedures of scout advancement does not make them a snob. Someone well versed in patrol method and leadership dynamics does not make them a snob. Someone who is well versed in historical references of Scouting does not make them a snob, either. Judging people as snobs doesn't make them snob in anyone's mind but their own. One must always be aware on the forums of any sort, that the specific words used carry a certain amount of either positive or negative judgment. While we are often unable to discern the hearts and minds of others, we are all fully aware that there have been a lot of scouts over the years that have been involved for selfish reasons and others for self-less reasons. A small child standing in the corner of the room could probably be able to tell the difference. If the discussions of such dynamics bother anyone, the forum has a convenient feature known as a Ignore option. Feel free to use that option. One may find that they are less offended by "snobbery", but they will also lose out on the knowledge that is imparted at the same time. I try to keep it in mind that those that know more about things than me aren't snobs it's just that they are more knowledgeable. Why I would need to feel justified in calling them a snob is difficult to understand at times. Just remember, I can choose to ignore these people and I can avoid the snobbery, but I also avoid the knowledge imparted. Of course the acquisition of getting either plus or minus points in someone else's book of judgment further illustrates this constant need to evaluate others. While this is quite natural to do, the effect of always assuming the negative first is also obvious. Yet in spite of the snobbery, the sarcasm, the humor, etc. I find the forum quite useful. Of course it takes a bit of getting over one's own judgmentalism to get comfortable on it, and the Ignore feature helps too for the more serious situations.

If one doesn't interfere with the patrol method, one doesn't need to worry about it. The boys tend to patrol/buddy up together by age and unless the adults interfere in the process, the boys don't bunk with older/younger boys because they aren't their buddies anyway.

With all the warnings out there with GMO, antibiotics, acid rain in our lakes, septic, herbicide and insecticide run off in our streams, eating anything is probably poisonous to humans.