Stosh

Cheesh! Always gotta be one out there that's a bit of a smartaleck! What about row boats and paddle-boards? Any rafts? Sailboats? I seriously don't understand why a Canoe Outfitter wouldn't have a full array of watercraft! (I like your style! )

I find it rather strange that I have 2 sheath knives that have: steel blades - Blacksmithing wood handles - whittling leather sheathes - leather All three MB's and yet the end product is outlawed at some scouting activities. and yes, my 2 sheath knives that I have are made by me. I don't wear them at BSA camps, but I do wear the BSA sheath knife. Oh, and as a side note, the knives are "Made in the USA"!!!

@@RichardB Obviously competative racing is not an acceptable activity for a BSA activity. Even though they found it appropriate to put the BSA logo on a NASCAR sponsored vehicle for the centennial. But I'm thinking the little amusement park course with the PeeWee golf course attached is what they are referring to and yes, it was one of these amusement park rides that this adult flipped a cart over and killed himself. But that was pretty much a freak accident that could have happened at any event, even bears and Philmont. But a lot of these commercial go-kart rides at amusement parks are going away. The last one we had in our area closed up last summer. The next nearest one is at least 100 miles away. My church group youth went to the park quite often to hit batted balls, ride the carts and play golf.

@@David CO One must also remember that teachers, coaches and scout leaders USED TO BE more reasonable in their judgments as well. While one may not be a big fan of inflexible policies, everyone that can seems to accept them as appropriate. One doesn't need to resolve issues anymore. Any minor spark of difference is met with an entrenched response of maximum power to defend one's position. This is how a piece of bread eaten so as to vaguely resemble a weapon will get a kindergarten child a school suspension. Hey people the gun's empty, quit pulling the trigger!!! I never thought I would see the day when I would have to hire a lawyer to defend my child's civil rights from the school system. I did and I won. Ever since then I have always had a healthy suspicion of the school system. It was a lesson taught to me by them. 35 years ago I worked with a school system that was a pleasure to work with. No problems and conflicts were quickly resolved with mutual satisfaction. I would even bend over backwards for the school because they would bend over backwards for me. Those days are long gone. So the days of teachers getting some slack cut on their judgments went out the window with zero-tolerance policies. The days of coaches getting some slack cut on their judgments went out the window with contractual policies that dictate over parental judgments. The days of ScoutMasters getting some slack cut on their judgments went out the window when they left the reservation and started making up their own rules. The art of negotiation has been lost in our society. I still use it and find I have very little discipline problems nor do I find the need to have parent/scout contracts, or rules beyond my 3 that I have 1) safety first, 2) look and act like a scout and 3) have fun. By-law citings and contract verbiage are for those that can't negotiate. Whenever I run up against someone who can't negotiate, I just walk away, it's a waste of time. Isn't a zero-tolerance policy a result of one's inability to negotiate anything?

One must always be vigilant of the ever increasing polarization going on in our society in recent years. It's what makes the issue of judgment on one hand counter oppose that of zero-tolerance. There used to be an acceptable social code that everyone seemed to adhere to that allowed for common sense judgment to occur. We have legalized the structures to the point where one's judgment is no longer a legal defense and thus needs to be codified. For years teachers complained about parents stepping back and dumping the upbringing of the children to the schools. Not everyone did that, but the prevailing winds seem to suggest that and people bought into it as gospel truth. Well it offered an opportunity for the schools then step in and justify a nanny state position and thus even grew to the point where the schools and it's employees feel they have a legal right to overrule the judgment of even the parents. 50 years ago, this would be an appalling and unacceptable situation in any jurisdiction in America. Now it is the "social norm". This overreach by the government schools because of it's mandated mission of forced education for minors, we see an ever increasing enrollment in private and charter schools, home-schooling, and voucher demands from parents who do not see the justification for paying twice for their child's education. Of course the government can force the double payment because they make the rules. Zero-tolerance nanny state rules don't do much for cooperative efforts for the welfare of the children. Of course one really doesn't need to cooperate with parents when all one has to do is make a quick phone call to Children's Protective Services and all resistance disappears in a heartbeat. If anyone wonders why there seems to be a touch of animosity between schools and parents it is peculiar to me. I don't wonder at all, not with the existing conditions of society. There is very little if any trust between teachers and parents anymore and for just cause.

I think the title says it all BOY Scouts whereas in the UK it's SCOUTS. If I wanted to join Scouts I would naturally assume it was not membership restricted in any way, but if the organization was named BOY Scouts or GIRL Scouts, I would assume the membership is limited/restricted to gender. If someone wanted a Scout program in America, they should start one, but as I see it developing, political whining and bullying threats are the means to hijack existing programs as the lazy way of dealing with it. Thus I tend to mistrust the honesty of those kinds of effort. If the sign out front of my business says "Canoe Rental" why would it be assumed that I rent kayaks or row boats? Maybe if one is looking to rent kayaks or Row Boats, they need to find a business that has a sign out front that says "Kayak Rental" or "Row Boat Rental", or better yet, the store sign that says "Watercraft Rental" and maybe then one could even rent a paddle board there. Go figure.

Only Indiana and Michigan have felony level punishment for hazing. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/01/08/anti-hazing-laws-penalties_n_4562555.html Bullying punishment is restricted mainly within schools, not elsewhere. http://education.findlaw.com/student-conduct-and-discipline/bullying.html

I love the way people think. I have relatives that worked their entire life for the government AND paid taxes. They tend to not be very happy people when it comes to the government spending. My brother and I have gone around this issue many times and the one thing that we agree on is the fact that: We might short 500 fighter pilots for the aircraft in the USAF because the USAF ordered 500 too many aircraft. Or maybe 2/3rd the USMC aircraft are grounded because they aren't needed and with all the spare parts readily available.... I guess it's just a matter of perspective, but when one's sister-in-law who worked in a government office had to buy huge quantities of office equipment and supplies to meet the budgeted amount or they would be cut the next year, it was pretty much a joke. Of course the budget was automatically adjusted by a percentage for the following year if the budgeted amount was met so next year the problem was even that much bigger. This is why the government surplus sales are so popular. One can buy brand new, unused items, there in many cases. Otherwise the items are gently used because entire offices were switched out with new equipment every year. I used to bid government contracts and know she was right in what she was saying. Of course it is known among the relief agencies that some of the relief organizations have administrative fees of 7-cents on a dollar. Lutheran World Relief and Catholic Charities have been able to provide 93-cents of relief materials for every dollar spent. The US government can provide that same relief material but it costs $2 to administrate. Even the American Red Cross has 93-cents administrative fees for 7-cents worth of emergency relief. It's not just the government wasting money, many organizations out there do, yet some others are very careful. Even charities like the American Cancer Society pay telemarketers 93-cents on a dollar for everything they collect over the phone. In other words when one makes a contribution, they think American Cancer Society gets a dollar when in fact they get 7-cents. Why should the American Cancer Society worry about it. Money keeps trickling in and the public is unaware of how the system really works. These are things which people never research for themselves and would be appalled if they ever knew.

@@Scouter1074 The interrelationship between those "grounds" identified varies from one person to the next, but they make a couple of very important points. Not everyone can dish out discipline equally because they may not be able to handle the various levels of the problem. I have worked with youth for 45 years in a variety of different settings besides BSA. I have worked with scouts from Cubs through Venturing, I have dealt with at-risk youth and youth with serious emotional problems, the kind where the advice given to everyone is never turn your back on these kids. I have 15 years experience in ministry and have training in clinical counseling. I also hold a degree in psychology. So I come armed to the table at a far greater level than the average scouter. I may be able to handle and tolerate more questionable situations than others but you are 100% correct that these boys need a second or third chance if that is possible, and if the problem beyond the leaders' ability, it is definitely justified to remove a scout from the program. BSA has a good program for developing good moral character and leadership, but when that goes awry, it doesn't have the resources to fix things, nor should it have to.

"@Stosh, I'm not convinced that just signin' off on a lad who shows up on your doorstep is really bein' helpful to the boy. I know it's not bein' helpful, courteous, or loyal to a fellow scouter. I wish you'd think about that some more. Teenagers are teenagers, eh? They try out all sorts of behaviors on da road to adulthood. One of 'em is "blame the adult" which is da teenage version of "you don't love me" (if yeh don't give me what I want). Another is "find da weakest link to manipulate". Kids of divorce get really good at the latter sometimes if the parents let 'em. Enabling or reinforcin' those behaviors does a lad no favors." @@Beavah I guess with all the years I have under my belt, I've seen a lot more than I want to when it comes to some of these relational issues and I have seen how they work out. When someone comes on-line with a concern that smacks of days-gone-by for me, I simply spell it out the way I handled it and how it turned out. While it is unclear what the motivation is for this "fellow scouter" who is adding to the requirements for a boy on the verge of getting his Eagle, it sounds too familiar to me because I have seen it play out many times in the past in previous units that I have been involved in as ASM and as UC for other units in the council. When a SM comes right out and states that a boy will never Eagle in HIS troop, one begins to wonder who's troop this SM thinks it belongs to. At that point I simply told the boys (yes it happened more than once) that they should $1 transfer to another unit if they ever want to earn their Eagle rank. They all took my advice and all found other units (not always the same other one) and eventually obtained the earned rank. Under those circumstances I found it extremely difficult to be helpful, courteous and loyal to a fellow scouter who was abusing the rules of BSA's advancement policy. Eventually I had enough of that troop and moved on to another. Maybe I'm overly sensitive to abusive SM's, maybe I am over reacting from historical experiences, or maybe I'm spot on and this boy needs support and help with his adult driven and un-deserved stance by the SM. I'm not just going to pencil whip the advancement just because the boy comes and asks for it, but I do basically pencil whip the Eagle hoops for boys I know and have worked with for multiple years. Once I have an idea of the situation, and it shakes out as he has indicated, I would have no problem with helping other people at all times even if that is a boy in some other troop who's struggling with a personal conflict with an adult SM. While every situation is different in life, I have seen this scenario before and I can be assured there is no good reconciliation ever going to come from it. Giving a boy a challenge is one thing, giving him obstacles is not the same thing and has no part in the character development of Scouts.

Back in 2013, we had an adult manage to flip over a go-cart at an amusement park and kill himself. I doubt whether the helmet would have done any good, but how he managed to flip a cart is beyond me. http://www.channel3000.com/news/man-died-after-losing-control-of-gokart-in-dells-officials-said/20839954 I can kinda see why BSA might be a bit touchy about the subject. https://www.cpsc.gov/PageFiles/97581/go-kart.pdf

The boys may not be involved in the budgeting of the entire troop, but a cursory review of expenses might be beneficial, BUT they should be involved in the patrol finances on patrol fund raising, budgeting and equipment and program expenditures. This process could involve patrol dues, but it also could be for the patrol's portion of the popcorn sales as well.

Since when does anything the federal government does, worry about the cost? I tend to take that into consideration.

It is interesting that the company I used to work for had manufacturing in the US and the product was made of US material and bore the Made in USA label on it. But the company made the same thing in China using more Chinese materials and no Made in USA label on it. Still sold Made in USA 10 to 1 over the Chinese product. Marketing makes a big difference. People still pay extra for quality.

Buy a Chinese kit and sew it together yourself and it's "Made in America".

But alas, the materials that make up the shirt don't necessarily need to be made in America, in order to get the "Made in the USA" label it needs only to be assembled in America. Union workers making the shirts is probably part of the government spec for the contract. Basically all "Made in the USA" means the product was assembled/manufactured on US soil. Toyota cars assembled in Kentucky are "Made in the USA".....and all the profits off of materials and sales of cars goes to Japan. US labor is all Toyota is using and avoiding the import tariffs of a complete car.

Material made in China. Buttons made in China. Thread made in China. All shipped to US and sewn on Chinese made sewing machines by people making minimum wage. All profits from the effort are sent back to China. Label on the shirt says: "Made in America" - Yes, this can happen and it's perfectly legal.

Every scout is taught map/compass, but as a backup also navigation without map/compass. It is not good to teach Geocaching without some kind of reliable backup. Basic map/compass might bode well for the person whose GPS unit craps out on them deep in the woods. I use my automobile GPS all the time, even use my SmartPhone as a backup, but I also have a compass in my glove box and know how to use it along with the maps under the front seat. Yes, there have been times when I have resorted to the maps because GPS just didn't cut it for certain situations.

Gotta be careful, if the SM finds out your boys and girls went go-karting with their church group, they could get kicked out of the troop. I don't think I've ever been to a commercial go-kart facility that has helmets. I do have to admit, most of the go-kart tracks are shutting down due to the high liability costs and the riders not wanting to pay the extra cost to ride. It's easier to shut down than to upgrade.

The more I hear about schools today, the more I am convinced I grew up in the Golden Age of the United States and since then it has progressively gone down hill.... with an emphasis on "progressively". Pun intended.

It is my understanding in my state that home-schooled kids aren't allowed to participate, they must be able to participate if they wish. It is not a privilege extended by the school district, but state law that says any home-schooled child can participate in any school activities they wish. The home-school parents pay just as much property tax as the next person and our state does not discriminate against them my limiting paid for public education. So I guess we come from differing backgrounds on that level. As far as a reputation to protect, the public schools around here aren't even trying for any reputation. Even I have sued the school system for violation of my child's civil rights and won. There's a whole cadre of lawyers just chomping at the bit to get a piece of that action. A pack, here and there, maybe 3 in our whole council are sponsored by a public school. 30 years ago that was WAY different. A lot of schools did. There is no one considering a school as a CO and would always pick some other institution first. Within the past year I know of one pack that dropped a public school CO and went with a religious organization. As far as a reputation to protect, the schools around here don't have any place to go but up. If they would just quit doing stupid things that would go a long way to improve their reputation, but we don't see any change on the horizon. Yes, my son was in a PTA pack held at a school, but school policy had no affect on the decisions of the Scouters. No troop is sponsored by a school.

I understand that the CO's can set standards according to their own policies. My grandchildren are home-schooled for the reasons that have been identified, and if this is the trend with schools being CO's, then yes, I would not want my child or grandchild associated with a school sponsored Scout unit. As a matter of fact, because of the harsh policies of the school near where my new troop is, my CO (a church) just took on the school's pack. The school and church are two blocks apart. So, I guess one isn't going to get much sympathy out of me when it comes to invasive and bullying tactics of the public school system.

Again, we're talking about assault an illegal activity. I've already agreed that grand theft auto and bank robbery would rank up there too as a no-no for Boy Scouts, but what about just going camping without adults but with parental permission?

But if I'm reading the other comments, because the boys are all scouts and go camping together as a non-scout activity with parental permission, it somehow translates into disobedience of the SM and grounds for getting kicked out of scouting like the star quarterback getting caught at the local beer party. If there is such a thing in BSA, I am totally unaware of it.

Alcohol consumption and possession is an illegal activity for anyone under 21. Yes, a scout caught on scout property with an illegal substance should be kicked out. I never questioned that. My question is if a scout and his buddies camp off of scout property with parental permission are they subject to being kicked out of scouting? And why would a SM even say no to something he has no business involving himself in anyway?