Stosh

Whittle a necker slide. One year I gave color coordinated Turk's Head necker slides to the boys and leaders. On the first canoe trip every spring I always would take a new scout in the front of my canoe, mostly for weight to keep the bow down out of the wind. I would whittle a paddle for the boy and use a Sharpie to write the name of the river and the date on it for him. I saw a lot of them on the Eagle "trophy" table at the Eagle COH's.

I always had a smoke-shifter and sky hook available for any scout that happened along. Snipes? They can be found in most bird books.

It's in the section where they talk about and show the Scout Salute. It can be used to show respect for another scout/scouter.

I agree there is a lot of similarity between interviewing and EBOR's. When I was in the ministry, I would interview at different congregations and my parting comment at the end of each one was. "If you extend a Letter of Call to me, I will be setting up an interview with the congregation before accepting." I got to pick who would be in the group on the second interview and they were the key players in the congregation, not just the call committee. Congregations that had dumped their former pastor were never in a hurry to take me on and I wasn't going to walk into a hornet's nest and waste my time.

I'm not demonizing anyone's program out there no matter how many times I get accused of it. I worked many years as an ASM in an adult led, no patrol structure except on paper, troop. It was touted in the council as one of the best run troops. When asked by another troop to take over as SM, I did so, but I warned them I was not going to run the program like the troop I was leaving. Instead I was going to teach GBB training and do the patrol method and defend the boy's running the show. We went from 5 boys to almost 30 in less than 4 years. Eventually I was asked to leave because I expected too much leadership out of the boys, but my ASM summed it up as I was spending too much time keeping the adults out of the boys' hair and not letting them control and run the troop from the sidelines. He took over when I left but he didn't last very long either. This all came about with a change in the CC who had the ear of the parents. It wasn't but a few months afterwards that the Council approached me to start a new troop using my skills as SM. The District UC signed on as my ASM because she wanted to know what I was doing that was different. I'm still the SM and she's still my ASM. I took on another ASM who I am grooming/mentoring to take over when I have had enough of the shenanigans of National's new policies. No my approach is not contradictory of anything BSA is promoting. It works and I have no where near the number of problems mentioned on the forum. Why? because if something goes awry, I'm not holding the bag. Complaints about the patrol structure? Not my problem, the boys decide how to organize their patrols. They just happen to be layered by age because that's the way they want it. PL's aren't elected, but they have PLs. Okay with me. It was their decision to have an SPL, not mine. The selection of summer camp is up to them. Same for the Calendar. Fundraising is a cooperation between boys and their parents, they are the ones paying for the outings. How many of these things discussed on this forum are a result of adults doing something and the boys just following along and not happy about it? I just spend my time avoiding those hassles. It works for me and thus I put it out there on the forum as just another alternative way of doing things. If anyone thinks that this approach of mine is derogatory to their program, then it's their problem.... Not mine. That's how I roll.

I always prep my Eagle candidates because neither of us know what shenanigans the various board members are going to pull on them once they go into the room. BE PREPARED. Whether they listened to what I suggested or not was up to them. Two very good friends had their EBOR's on the same night with the same board. 1 boy listened to what I suggested and the board was able to get 4 questions asked of him. Each question was answered in great detail and interest the board had to cut off his comments to go on to the next question. On the other hand his buddy did not listen to my suggestions, answered with short, terse answers and thus had to endure 27 questions during the same allotted time. Sure they both Eagled, but one had a very different experience in the EBOR than the other. There was a point of time during the EBOR where the candidate left the room and questions were posed to me about the boy's qualifications as Eagle. One of the board members asked me in a serious, but joking manner, "How do you get this boy to quiet down?" I said that the EBOR is HIS EBOR and he can run it anyway he wishes, just like he did in the patrol. To which the board member said, "Well, he certainly knows how to do that." I knew the board was in trouble when the scout entered the room, stood at attention and saluted the board. They didn't know what to say or do. Finally one said, "take a seat." at which point he gave the Scout Sign, and did the Oath and Law before sitting down. The first thing a board member said, "it is not proper to salute other scouts, just the flag", to which the scout gave the page number of the Scout Handbook that contradicted that statement.

As mentioned in many of my posts, I'm not a big fan of how SPL's operate in the troops. If there is one patrol, the SPL is constantly interfering in the operation of the patrol. If there's two, he becomes twice the problem. When my troop got to 4 patrols THEY decided on having an SPL and they defined the role, not at a superior to them, but as one who supports the patrol's decision. Up to this point the SPL didn't run the troop and if the troop got bigger, he still didn't run the troop. Like school, it is far easier to control large groups with a single superior, but the patrol method demands a divide and conquer approach. In all my years of being a SM, I have never suggested to the boys that they function as a troop, but as a consortium of patrols. The new boys focus on advancement and the older boys on high adventure. There are two entirely different interests operating within the "troop" but the interest and attention is focused for each of the groups/patrols. People in a large group find it easy to become "invisible" when the group gets large enough. This opens the Pandora box for all kinds of shenanigans brought on by boredom. In the smaller patrol groupings, it is almost impossible to become invisible. If the "troop" is planning to go to Philmont this year, the NSP becomes "invisible" because they aren't going to be going anyway. If it's a mixed patrol setup, then each of the patrols face this problem because the younger boys are not going. How then is the PL supposed to maintain the group's focus? I dunno, so I don't structure my troop to have to face this concern. The Venture Patrols focus on getting to Philmont with all the details and training required and the NSP keeps on with it's focus on advancement and learning. Sure the TG might take a hiatus and go with the Venture patrol to Philmont, but it won't affect the NSP except for the week he is gone. Maybe a scout from one of the Regular patrols could step in for that week. When one focuses on Troop concerns, it detracts from the patrol method. How do we keep both 6th graders and seniors in high school all on the same page for an hour each week? The answer to that question in my book is: Don't try to do it. Instead allow the opportunity for the boys to decide for themselves what they want to do to focus their attention on scouting. Advancement? Sure, NSP. High Adventure? Sure, Venture Patrol, and the Regular patrols can do whatever they want, maybe a mixture of some advancement, some MB work, some more challenging activities like backpacking for a weekend instead of all week at Philmont. One of the best excuses to-date in support of the patrol method is that it requires a lot more attention to the task at hand than when they are dumped into a larger group where boredom reigns. Ever watch businesses, schools, churches and large organizations when something needs to get done? What do they do? They break into smaller groupings and focus the members on smaller more pertinent issues that the group is interested in. Isn't that the patrol method in scouting?

As far as convincing the adults about the patrol method is concerned, I often find it more difficult to convince the boys. Without them backing the patrol method, one is dead in the water. However, if allied with the program, the scouts often hold sway over the adults/parents. Once the parents see the benefits allowed by the program leaders, the parents will come around. More than once, I have had parents tell me how great their kid turned out if given the chance to mature naturally in the patrol setting. The major problem with adults is not allowing the boys to function properly in the patrol setting and then wag their finger in justification saying, it doesn't work. Of course it doesn't work, the boys never had a chance from the get-go.

Units in this council work hard at getting a spot at Philmont and don't always get one. They have kinda given up over the years. I guess councils get spots or are entitled to get spots, and try and fill them. One or two boys will jump on board right away Units really don't want others on their treks so they only go when they get a full contingent. Thus the council's contingent gets left out in the cold to where they even go to surrounding councils looking to pick up a scout or two. If they would offer the whole council contingent upfront to a unit, maybe they could get it filled. Poorly handled and a spot wasted for the most part.

Yes, the program has changed...... But so have the traditions. This reminds me of someone in a small town telling me about the oldest house in town. I'm a wee bit of a history buff. I went to the address and there stood a standard ranch style house. It looked just like everything else on the block. Nothing unique about it..... except when one went inside, the living room was rather unique. It was the 4 walls and floor of the original log home that stood on that spot. It would be a shame to sheet rock the living room walls and carpet the floors. As times change, maybe that will become the new norm for the "oldest house in town".

One isn't going to rewrite history by citing current "norms". It was a tradition that many new Cubs looked forward to. I thought it was kinda fun.

@mashmaster Our council offered the whole contingent to any unit that wanted it and still couldn't get any takers.

The BWCA has crews that go out and regularly do these things. It is not something the visitors are allowed to do on their own.

That's strange, in my family we call them out-laws.

To add to @gblotter comments, there is an ever increasing number of home-schooled youth in our society because of the attitudes, new norrms, and questionable teaching practices of "today's society". If one looks at the Lone Cub Scout and Lone Boy Scout programs, it remains today because: 5.0.3.0 Lone Scouting Boys who do not have access to traditional Scouting units can become Lone Cub Scouts and Lone Boy Scouts. In the following or similar circumstances, they may find this an appropriate option: Home-schooled where parents do not want them in a youth group U.S. citizens living abroad Exchange students away from the United States Disability or communicable illness that prevents meeting attendance Rural communities far from a unit Conflicts with a job, night school, or boarding school Families who frequently travel or live on a boat, etc. Living arrangements with parents in different communities Environments where getting to meetings may put the Scout in danger Pay particular attention to #1. This also speaks to the "local option" where the parents, not the CO's are the decision makers.

When I had a full complement of patrols 1-NSP, 2-Regular, and 1-Venture, we frequently had patrols doing varying age appropriate activities. Worked well.

http://www.usscouts.org/usscouts/cubscouts/bobcat1.pdf It appears the practice was being used up until the late 1990's

https://www.scouting.org/Home/GuideToAdvancement/SpecialConsiderations.aspx Comparing regular Cub and Boy Scout programs with Lone Cub and Scout programs is apples and oranges. High School aged youth in Boy Scout, Sea Scouts, Venturing, STEM, Learning for Life and Lone Scouting are all subject to different dynamics within the scope of BSA. Only Boy Scouts use the patrol method.

When does the question allow for the scout to expand on his experiences and when does it judge whether or not that experience is good enough to be labeled as Eagle-worthy? "In our troop, we traditionally had PopTarts and hot cocoa for breakfast, PBJ's for lunch and foil dinners for supper. It gave us a lot more time to have fun without having to wash dishes all the time." Yep, there's tomorrow's Eagle Scout. So what's the EBOR going to do? Fail him? What if he's already turned 18 by the time the EBOR runs around?

@Col. Flagg out of all the knives I have that are considered pocket knives, only one was a bit over 3". When confronted by it, I stuck it in a crack in the counter and snapped off the point to make it legal. Now I have a pocket knife that doubles as a screwdriver. The only reason it was over 3" is because the person measuring the length measured from the handle to the tip rather than the actual cutting edge. It was a 3" knife.

I remember it as a new Cub. They hold you upside down and pin the Bobcat pin on upside right. When you have done your first Good Turn, then the Cub turns it right-side up. After 35 years of intensive therapy, I turned out okay.

I have no past experience that has given me any reason to be resentful of the Eagle Scout BOR process, I was reacting to the situation described in the post. If my council were to pull the shenanigans described, yes, I would be resentful. It sounds as if we are in total agreement on this OP's concern. I guess I would never refer to the EBOR as a "test", "judgment" or "evaluation". As the title suggests it is a Review of all the accomplishments the scout has fulfilled and is now to be recognized and celebrated. Yes, the boy shows up without his uniform it wouldn't bother me one bit. It's what's inside the scout that makes him an Eagle. And technically one is correct that the final requirement has not been met, and technically speaking, "successfully complete" leaves the door open to adult gate-keeping and abuse. Why does the onus of success fall under such a vague description. If it were me unable to successfully complete the EBOR because of some technicality that was cleared prior to the meeting, (i.e. didn't have my blue-cards readily available), I wouldn't bother to return to attempt again. That part of successfully completed was already done before walking into the meeting. I don't need some austere board of over zealous scouters questioning my honesty at that point. No one is going to schedule an EBOR for the scout unless everyone is sure he has covered all the "technical" issues. This is not a final test, judgement or evaluation it is an Eagle Board of REVIEW. That means they take a second look, nothing more. Take a second look and share the experience of accomplishment with the scout. A Scout is trustworthy, so I would trust that everyone prior to the scout showing up for the EBOR has been done due diligence to insure a successful review of the scout's work. If not, I would not put the blame on the scout, nor deny him his accomplishments. Is an EBOR a test, judgment or evaluation of the scout's honesty? .... and more importantly is it a test, judgment or evaluation of the integrity of the review panel members? It could go both ways. From the OP's concern, both sides need to be held accountable and in this case, I would think the scout has done his due diligence, with or without a handful of blue-cards. I think if there is a glaring omission somewhere, fine. Bring it to the attention of the board. But one must also assume that as the boy stands there in front of the Board, he HAS ALREADY passed all the other requirements. That should tell the EBOR panel that re-testing, re-judging, and re-evaluation is not proper.

As one who dislikes being misquoted and having "words put in your mouth", it would be courteous not to do it to others. I never said anyone or any organization was stupid. I did say what they were doing was stupid. Very smart people have been known to do stupid things on occasion. With that being said, I have worked with both faith-based youth programs and BSA and I do NOT run them the same way. It's apples and oranges. I have been quite successful in doing both these programs for almost 50 years now. Micromanagement of any youth program is one of the indicators of leadership development. The more the adults lead, the less the youth do and vice versa. One can't have both, it's either one or the other.

And our council has extended signing up to go 3 times now because they can't fill the crew.

@Col. Flagg I think the laws pertain to the length of the blade, not the knife opened. One might want to check the wording carefully with these laws.