Stosh

Okay, here's the scoop from way out in La La Land. I don't really count in the grand scheme of things, but then I don't seem to have as many problems as others either. So take that with a grain of salt. As long as one is currently in a major transition, here's my solution. Put all the boys in one room. Give them the instructions. Patrols are to be 6-8 boys, It is up to each patrol to have a PL. When you have arranged that set up, come out and let me know what you've decided. It takes all the adult recommendations, concerns, angst, frustration, interference, etc. and keeps it out of the way of the boys. Trust them to do what they think is right for them. If all four PL"s were great PL's they should come out with PL positions, if not someone else will It should be of no concern of the adults what the boys pick. With the number of patrols that might form, the boys may wish to have an SPL, a SENIOR PL who will assist the PL's with their operations in their patrols. This person ideally would be selected by the PL's who would be relying on him for his assistance as needed. The PL's are selected by the patrol members as the boy to help the patrol be successful, the SPL should be selected by the PL's as the boy to help the PL's be successful. Once that has been decided, start teaching the boys about leadership and not just management. It sounds as if there are some envy going on here and a tremendous misconception of what leadership is. There is more to leadership than having a leadership title. Let's say out of the 36+12 boys - 48 that makes 6 patrols. Five in reality and one Leadership Corps "patrol". 1 SPL (LC) 1 ASPL (PL of the Leadership Corps (LC) group) 5 PL 5 APL 1 Troop QM (LC) 1 Troop Scribe (LC) 2 TG (LC or with patrol) (for the new boys if they happen to group together) 5 Instructors (one from each patrol) 1 Chaplain Aide (LC) Okay, that's 22 boys in direct leadership positions that are obvious at first glance, We're getting close to half the boys needing to produce leadership skills and be functional. And if the 5 APL's complain that they don't get POR credit for APL work, just ask them if they are doing it to get rank advancement or to help their patrol. If they say rank advancement, get someone else in there who will be a functional leader. Then train these people to actually do their job and take care of those that they are responsible for taking care of. If a APL won't work double time to make his PL look good and be successful, he has no business being an APL, or any other position for that matter. So here's how it works, dump them in a room, let them sort themselves out, pick a basic leader (PL) and when they come out ask if there's going to be an SPL, ASPL, QM, Scribe, CA, etc. LET THEM TELL YOU WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN and simply record their decision. Remember if it doesn't work out, it's not your fault. If it doesn't work out it's theirs and it's up to them to make it work. They may need to shuffle around for a few months until they get everything working, but LET THEM do the sorting and shuffling. If they make a change, just say, Okay and make the changes in the system. Don't make it a big deal. Most adults over think this process when it's really not their problem in the first place. I don't think about it at all and I have no problem with the structure of my troop's patrol organization. The boys do at various time, but I don't.

Wrong, her English is better than most people in America of any age. We have some people here that are more difficult to understand than the Brits and Aussies! Seriously, Giulia doesn't have one mistake in the whole post, which would automatically make me assume she's not an American!

https://www.facebook.com/WhistleSports/videos/vb.441241125922184/950733694972922/?type=2&theater

Oh, goodie, that one beats my old "Age and Treachery will win out over Youth and Exuberance any day".

Yeah, what he said.... Other than the part where her English is better than my Italian. If she knows the word THE, she's doing better than me.

Welcome to the forum. It's good to have more youth here because that's where the program really works. Don't worry about your English, you seem to be doing better than some here.

You have made a step in the right direction. I just limit the signing to the PL's. One person in charge of their patrol is in control of taking care of advancement for any and all boys in the patrol. As I mentioned, Instructors do NOT sign off on advancement, only notify the PL the instruction was done. It's up to the PL to test and eventually sign. Adults teaching something also is dealt with in the same manner. Adults do not sign off, the PL does after the adult reports to him. If someone other than the PL has signed off on a scout's advancement record, this should run up a major red flag for the PL and the SM when it comes time for the SMC and BOR.

The effectiveness of a charity organization is dependent on the mission, charity status, non-profit status and governmental status and even how they go about fund raising. Some of the most cost effective organizations are the religious organizations. VERY few of the personnel involved are professional and the vast majority are volunteers or volunteers working for just enough to stay alive. No one's going to be having a meeting anywhere other than a hut or under a tree. Then there are the non-profits, they tend to be quite relaxed in their approach and tend to have a greater number of paid volunteers, Red Cross, BSA, GS/USA, United Way, Boys & Girls Clubs, YMCA's, and medical kinds of research all fit in this middle ground. Then there are the for-profit organizations that do work for the benefit and welfare of others, like hospitals, private schools, etc. On the bottom of the scale where people contribute with no cost to the organization, i.e. passing the plate so to speak these organizations can operate on about 7%-10% administrative fees of moving goods and services to those who need them. Lutheran World Relief and Catholic Charities fall into this level of assistance. That means 90%-93% of the money raised goes towards the mission for which it was collected. On the other end of the scale, we have such organizations such as Red Cross and YMCA's that have high administrative fees. Those can run into the 90%+ range meaning less than 10% of the money raised actually gets to those in need. How many is raised also has an affect on the amount that goes to the "cause". If the American Cancer Society relies on telemarketers to raise funds for their operation, the telemarketers cost about 90-cents on the dollar which means for every dollar taken in by the telemarketer, 10-cents goes to the American Cancer Society. Basically this is a for-profit operation posing as a non-profit to raise money for charities. The 10-cents becomes a donation to the American Cancer Society they can take as a tax write-off. American Cancer Society doesn't complain because they get a donation and the public who thinks they are making a substantial contribution are being deceived. The government has no checks and balances for it's "charitable" efforts, on average takes $2 worth of administrative fees to provide $1 worth of benefit, barring no political ramifications. There was a major drought in Northern Africa a few years back and the US government sent tons of relief aid which sat at the airport tarmacs and wasn't being delivered. In the mean time Catholic Charities and Lutheran World Relief vehicles were going out half full of church contributions on routes and in vehicles that had been used and were set up to do this kind of work in the area already. The US government would not put US goods on the "religious" trucks that were taking things to the people in need anyway. They had to wait for the Army vehicles to get clearance and come into the area to haul the goods. By the time they got the stuff to the people it was weeks if not months late. The religious trucks did the best they could with what they had in the meantime and actually did some good. No price tag was ever set on that kind of stupidity.

Compromise is that the Scout signing off has to show competency in the skill being taught and signed off. ALSO whatever skills being taught won't be signed off until used on a camp out. I'm good with that. Sounds a bit like adding to the requirement yet. But it is a step in the right direction. On the other hand, one must be very careful in this transition process to make sure the PL's don't get the message that they can't be trusted in their judgment. I don't have anyone other than PL's signing off on advancement.... any advancement except Eagle. PL knows nothing about compass, but one of his boys works with an Instructor and the boy gets trained in the compass requirement. The Instructor notifies the PL that he has passed the skill and the PL signs off on it trusting in the functionality of the Instructor. PL has a Star scout in his patrol and the PL is 2nd Class Scout. He reviews the MB's, the POR work of the Star scout, does what he thinks is necessary for him to have done on all the requirements before going to the SM for the SMC. Managers make sure the work gets done, leaders make sure the people are cared for and are ready. I would have no problem with a 2nd Class PL signing off on a Life Scout's requirement when he shows his PL the blue cards to prove it. Documents his POR responsibilities of the past 6 months, etc. Why does that take an adult to do that? Heck, a functional Tenderfoot PL can read the book and determine whether or not this Scout has met the requirements or not. If not he can discuss it with his APL and if they still don't understand, (it might be the first time he's had to deal with it) he and the APL can go to the SPL or SM for assistance and suggestions on how to handle it. It is always remarkable that every time an adult refuses to relinquish control of a situation it boldly announces to the boys that they aren't trusted. Might as well cut to the chase and never sign off on Scout Spirit because until they turn a certain age, they are not TRUSTWORTY Scouts. None of them deserve to be FC Scouts under those assumptions. And having to take the training and then proving it to adults at a campout is just another way of saying the Scouts aren't trustworthy.

@@Cambridgeskip Harsh? I think you Brits are a lot more courteous than us Damnyankees. I take it you've never seen any of our video clips on parents "talking" to Little League or Soccer referees. These people have blood in their eyes as they do the She-Bear protective thing for their dear little cubs. We live in a salesmanship culture here in America. Our people don't take NO for an answer on things they tend to be passionate about and for some this applies to being a parent. So now we have young boys learning to be independent and breaking away from that parental control. Once the boy gets a taste of the world outside the nest, he's gonna want to fly and Mamma Bird doesn't always think that's a good idea. Dad's usually have enough sense not to get in Mom's way either. So there's going to be all kinds of pushing the envelop in the BSA program of which there are parents who will find that difficult to simply stand by and watch. Yes, your age structuring is different than ours, but one must also remember that by the time the boys are 14 most of them, at least in my troops, have had extensive leadership training and opportunity. My older boys may hang on to the cherry POR's, but for the most part focus on high adventure, working on Eagle and hanging out with their buddies. By the time most of my boys turn 14, they can all say, "been there, done that." I start my boys very early with leadership training and my NSP's generally have their own PL's, APL's QM, Scribe etc. being mentored by a functional TG. After a year they are expected to stand on their own two feet and for the most part do. An occasional hiccup or two, but by 18 months, they do just fine. That puts them in the 12 year old age bracket with two more years to work on fine-tuning their leadership. I have had 13 year olds running the entire troop popcorn sale fund raiser and each boy by the time they get out of the NSP have taken the lead on some form of service project for the patrol/troop. My NSP earn the right to be called Regular Patrol. With that time-line defined that tight, I do not have time to deal with interfering parents that will do nothing but slow down that process. On the very first meeting with parents they are told up-front what is going to happen and if they don't like it, we help them find a different troop. Every parent/guardian is ALWAYS welcomed to visit any and all activities of the troop AS OBSERVERS ONLY. They have that right as a parent, but they don't have a right to interfere in the lives of boys that are not their son(s) and attempts to do so will be addressed on the spot by the PL's If that doesn't work, the the SM is called (At this point we don't have an SPL). At first there are a few parents who will test the waters of the troop, but they learn quickly. By the way, with the Arrow of Light Award, there are Cub Scouts crossing over into the NSP's at age 10+ so that we can have leaders well on their way to great things by the time they are 11. It doesn't happen over-night, but he evolution of New Patrol to Regular Patrol happens as naturally as the evolution of the Regular patrol into Venturing Patrol around the age of 14-15. No fanfare, just comfort in knowing where one stands in the troop structure.

Why would one want to "sign up" an interfering parent into the adult leadership of the troop? That's like inviting the fox in to watch the hen house. If they call your bluff, you're opening the door for more hassle rather than avoiding it. Why not just explain up front the purpose of scouting and how this troop will be run and then let the parents decide whether they want their boy involved in it or not. If not, do whatever is necessary to help get the boy involved in an adult-led troop that the parents can sign up for it too and be big people scouts so they can bond with their boys. I can't imagine I'm the only one that can't see that as a potential problem. I have only one ASM. There's a reason for that. The other adults "hanging around" are the committee members that are 100% in the know of what's going on with the boy-led thing and are on board with it. If they come on an activity, they are fully oriented to how things work. The only cutesy phrase necessary to keep the adult involvement in check is, "With all due respect...." said by the PL in charge which they are allowed to say any time they feel their leadership is threatened or challenged. The patrol is his "turf" and he is expected to defend it from adult interference. They all know the SM will back them on the issues.

This could have easily been avoided had the PL been monitoring and signing off on the boy's rank progress. Obviously having adults involved, trying to monitor ALL the scouts instead of a PL focusing on just a few makes a big difference. No many boy-led Eagle Mills out there..... just sayin'.

How does a PL not notice this boy''s progress when he's not signing off and he's not checking the adult signatures that should be checking off. Doesn't sound like the PL is functional. If PL isn't checking, the SM isn't checking, the BOR isn't checking/reviewing, who's watching the hen house? Sounds like the whole train is off the tracks.

Jim, Joey, and Pete didn't have no women sewing on the Broken Wheel Ranch, This was a real guy's show. Even Fury was a stallion.

No, but there is a benefit of bonding to a group and the slow guys recognizing the needs of the faster guys and vice versa. Otherwise the lesson take away is that every troop and every patrol needs to be split into two. I guess that fits nicely into the PC concept that polarization of even the smallest grouping of friends is okay. We all have our individual goals in life and need to recognize that. That takes precedence over the concept of community.

My boys keep records of the meals they eat. Boys in the patrol say they wan XYZ stew for supper. 1) Grubmaster pulls out the one page sheet on the XYZ Stew. 2) It has the ingredients 3) It has the instructions 4) It has the equipment list for the QM 5) It has the shopping list for the shopper 6) It has a spot to mark how many to feed 7) Shopper makes portion adjustments and calculates current cost. 8) Reports this to the Scribe to collect the money. Scouts want Mountain Man Breakfast GrubMaster repeats steps 1 through 8 Scouts want Mac & Cheese with Spam Grubmaster repeats steps 1 through 8 Once the boys have all the menus they like they can redo any of them in a heartbeat and that gives them time to work up a new recipe to try. This is usually done by the boys in the NSP who are working on advancement and need to plan out a menu. A template sheet is given to the boy to copy his favorite recipe on and it gets added to the patrol cookbook. If the recipe is a bummer, it becomes tinder for the cook fire.

I don't remember MB's being offered at camp.

Notice that the boy made the tree ladder with just his sheath knife? Lotta whittlin' going on there. Joey had a belt ax so the other boy could borrow and make a splint. No waist belt, but I too, noticed the diamond hitch, The "pack" was really just a backboard with the hitch. Neckers OVER the collar. Jim had 3 service stars on his shirt. Nice piece of Americana. The film doesn't age well, I don't remember the acting being that bad when I was a kid.

I remember buying a uniform from the J.C. Penny's store downtown. They had a counter in the back that was just for the scout stuff. If they didn't have it, they ordered it.

I really don't see where the boys missed a learning opportunity here. 1) They learned never to trust an adult to follow through with their interruptions and confusing of any issue. 2) They learned to Jump in and get it done before some interfering adult comes and makes thing worse. 3) They learned that just because one is over 18 doesn't make them any more capable than they are. 4) They learned that just because some adult started the process doesn't mean they will follow through. Prices on the shopping list? How's that? Never heard of that. The boys just collect $15-20 from each boy going and that's the budget. They have to shop within the budget, no exceptions. Any money left over is tossed into the patrol kitty. The boys don't need a debit card, the patrol Scribe handles the cash transaction with the shoppers. They don't have enough money for the food? Too bad, figure it out. This is a patrol level process. They have been taught according to the handbook. But eventually as they get good at it, they merely tell the GrubMaster what they want and he sets the fee and the shopper and Scribe take care of it. I don't think our boys have ever used a patrol roster of any kind. They have to have one posted at summer camp on the camp bulletin board but after it's posted it's ignored. In as much as I hate paperwork, so do the boys. They keep it to a minimum.

My first activity with a Boy Scout was very similar. Hike 5 miles hike and cook a meal. I didn't have a pack so I carried everything in a haversack. Worked fine. I know there was at least one adult, could have been more. Never figured him to fall in the well, but getting lost looked pretty good without a map there for a while. Uniform had patrol patch, and numbers, but no community strip. I noticed the box had shoes in it, but no socks. .

I thought it interesting the troop was sponsored by 4-H

Some of the rules are also motivated by political correctness. I really don't see much harm in squirt guns, laser tag and paintball, but one is pointing a "gun" at another person.

I don't break rules where safety is concerned, but I do work around those that are anti-fun.

Nail a board with an edge around it to the bottom of the bird house that was built. Now you have a feeding station. The scout already has his month in as a bird house with zero traffic at least now he'll have something more interesting to watch..... Make sure the seed is a variety of different types. Finches like thistle, cardinals like sun flowers, chickadees and nuthatches like suet. Turkey vultures and crows like road kill, so be sure to drag something dead up close to the house where you can watch it.