Stosh

Hedge, wouldn't you be happy if your First Class scout follow the Oath and Law as much as you would if he attained Eagle? I really don't know what the big deal is with the Eagle, it should apply to all the ranks...Equally! Being a Scout is the standard, not Eagle.

Kinda sad! Yet I select my ASM based on how well they do paperwork. Otherwise it would never get done in my units.

I do believe that when a scout encounters an unjust rule he is expected to work to have it changed. Nothing wrong with adults supporting him in his struggle. To avoid an injustice is counter to the Scout Law.

Ask who the one other adult is that will be going with you.

I have always encouraged venture patrols. No paperwork, no separate programming, no separate committee, no separate meetings, no separate requirements, no doubled adult involvement, no advancement issues, no hassles. If a boy shows a loss of interest, they get invited into the venture patrol. They are still able to do advancement, hold troop POR's and help the younger boys if they want. WAY TO MUCH hassle to start a Venturing Crew for the older boys. This works better if the BSA patrol structure of New, Regular, and Venture patrols are used and not interest mixed.

With everybody having their own ideas for eagle, there will never be a consensus on it. What has happened is the rank has become somewhat of a holy grail award that holds some kind of magic power. Well the dynamics that makes a great eagle is identical to the dynamics that makes a great first class scout. Nothing more, nothing less. So if someone wants to ooh and ah themselves into an eagle mystified trance of specialness, that's up to them,but it should not be the new norm for the BSA program. Just because someone has reached the rank of eagle does not mean they are better than any other scout. I do think it is unfortunate that it is the message we give loud and clear to them.

Get all the requirements done and at the last minute lose out on eagle by one vote. Not my cup of tea. One earns the rank on their own efforts, not the whims of others.

It's a Scout who has met all the requirements for the rank. Anything beyond that is adding to the requirements. As far as living the Scout honor And have character and integrity, a Scout of any rank can have that. Being a Real scout or a Parlor/Paper scout holds true for any rank. It is up to the individual boy which he is, not the program.

Just curious, why would the CO need to be your church? I've used American Legion (great CO), another church besides my own, an independent group, and I'm looking for a CO for a Venturing Crew right now, shouldn't be that hard to find. Finding a good CO is the least of one's worries.

Congrats to your son! It always amazes me that the Eagles of today learn more about doing busy-work paper filing than they do showing leadership. I have my boys doing preparatory Eagle level projects all the time, they just pick one eventually to do the paperwork on.... That's kinda sad.

Looks like most of the troops in the area are pretty much questionable. As mentioned, one can always find a corner of the district and offer up an alternative program based on the BSA program. If one has something to offer Scouting in terms of understanding and skill set, one may have to make the choice of forming a new troop and having one's sons be happy where they are. Who's to say that they will even want to stay with the dysfunctional troop. About 15 years ago, I was in a similar situation. Left the dysfunctional troop and went to rebuild an existing one. Went from 5 boys to 28 boys in 3 years. Situation arose and now I'm starting from scratch yet another program. First big campout of the season coming up with the new Webelos boys who will be crossing over in June. Summer camp is all set and the boys seem to be excited about the whole thing, so things will be okay. No politics in that there are no "histories" in a new troop, no "traditions" in a new troop, no "entrenched adults" in a new troop, just a clean slate from which to build a boy-led, patrol-method troop. Right now the 25+ boys crossing over have 3 options. 1) Eagle mill troop that is starting to struggle, 2) Troop that doesn't camp munch but has a long standing SM that has strong political ties to the three Cub Scout packs in the area, and then 3) my troop of new boys. The split will be close to 3 way and I'm not really feeling the warm fuzzies from the other two troops for "stealing" a chuck of change out of THEIR feeder packs. But, the boys at least have options.

"Oh...and since you mention my son's ECOH, he's made it clear that he no longer has any interest in having an ECOH. He did when he was younger, as all young scouts do, but right now he just wants to earn his Eagle and then put scouting behind him. Scouting is supposed to be all about the scouts, but sometimes, and too often, it's all about the scouters." And this is why I run the program the way I do. There is nothing so bad in a boy-led program that interfering adults can't make it worse!

If youth of that age can see the work around, why can't the people in Irvine see it? It's a natural reaction to the situation.

It's true in da U.S. that our habit has become to treat middle schoolers like they're 3rd graders and high schoolers like they're 6th graders and young adults like they're in 8th grade. In much of da rest of the world, day-to-day Scoutin' is run by the Rover-aged folks (under 26), with a few 30-somethings around as group leaders. Havin' an over-40 person in a youth contact role is kinda creepy. Seriously? With age comes wisdom. Some of the best youth workers are in the +40 age group in that they don't have skin in the game and they don't have anything to prove. Along with a "been-there, done-that" experience, they can out-perform the <30 year olds any day. They don't come off as pals, the way the younger leaders like to see themselves as and thus are not taken as seriously as the older leaders. I have a Boy Scout troop, a Venturing crew and a church youth group. I was actively recruited because of my background for all three. Kinda creepy? I would find a 25 year old Venture Crew advisor in a co-ed group more in that category.

I would think as UC it would be extremely difficult for a compromise when one party has staunchly entrenched their heels and has no intention of backing down. We are at a level of conflict that is not resolvable. Yes, compromise is great, but I'm not going to hold my breath on this situation. I'd be seeking more productive alternatives for the Life Scout.

Why wouldn't they, BSA doesn't take them seriously either thus the age issues with Boy Scouting and Venturing.

Sorry, I thought we were discussing the impact of having tuition free education proposed by the entitlement youth protesting around the country. I was going with a "what-if" scenario of 2 year state tech college free tuition, followed by a 2 more free years in a state university. Then if someone wanted more than that for their child, the tax payer would be off the hook and the parents/students can pay for their own specialty education. If an Oklahoma student didn't like the offerings of the free Oklahoma state system, they could then go to Texas and pay for whatever out-of-state tuition they wanted to, just don't expect to have the Oklahoma taxpayers pick up the tab. This of course, is based on the principle that the tuition is the free part, the students still have to pay for room/board, user fees, books, supplies, t-shirts, and beer on their own. Of course one must also realize in socialist society, the government dictates whether the education is free depending on the grades the student puts up. If a student doesn't perform well at a certain level, that's when the government education stops. If one wishes to go beyond that, they can pay for it on their own. To me, any serious student interested in bettering him/herself would have a chance to do so and as a taxpayer, I wouldn't really have a problem with that.

And thus begins the slippery slope alternative to Scouting. 50 years ago, this is how it started for me. This is nothing new, but one would think that by now the elitist intellectuals of the PC world would have figured this out by now. Apparently not. At least for me, I have a modern compromise. All the things I can't do in Scouting, I get to do with my church youth group kids. After 50 years, I have learned how to play the game.

Yep, with a troop like that, I'd take a hike too.

IMHO I don't think you or your son did anything wrong. A Scout is Brave and your son held his own. His situation may in fact either is going to make or break it for scouting. I put in 35+ years of scouting BECAUSE I had a lousy SM. When my son became a Tiger Cub I came on board with a personal mission that I would never do to a scout what was done to me. Yes, I challenge my boys, but I also make sure that when all is said and done they have succeeded. Even the boy I held back his Eagle for 6 months to earn my unnecessary recommendation to the Council. How do I know this? He was tearing up, when he hugged me and presented me with his Eagle mentor pin. If your son decides that Scouting is good in spite of his current situation he may indeed go on to be an caring and compassionate SM to hundreds of boys over the course of his lifetime. As far as the Eagle, he put in more of an effort to earn it than just meeting the requirements, he persevered and has become a Real Eagle in the process. Anything worth having involves a struggle, the harder the struggle, the greater the worth. Don't worry, your son will be just fine.

If one takes away the reason for entitlement by educating and helping one also takes away the reason for forced charity. In a capitalistic society there is always hope to break the cycle of poverty. No one ever got out of poverty sitting around waiting for a welfare check.

Uphill.

Yet a break in the wall can be created faster than shoveling and removing burnable materials by burning them in the first place. That space along with sand/cover might work but if the wind is blowing towards you and your fire provides burned area of some safety it's better than having burnable brush right over you when the wall passes. If one can't create a fire break by hand clearing the land, burning will work just as well and as long as the woods are already on fire, there's no problem with the authorities. For me clearing the land, however, small even if the fire is split 30' where you're burn went, that's 15' of no brush that would otherwise be on top of you. I have no idea how much break one would need, but any is better than none. Even then if the fire is intense enough, the lack of oxygen is still going to be a concern and a break in the wall would help with that as well.

For those who prefer a flatter hike, we have the Ice Age Trail (1,000 miles in Wisconsin) and the North Country Trail (4,000 miles from Eastern New York to Central North Dakota) Just a nice flatlander option so one doesn't need to worry about altitude adjustments.

Top soil and sand isn't a very interesting option for the MB. The only thing less interesting would be the Sahara.