Stosh

I take it the Army has not done studies on students with book bags using single straps on a daily basis.

@@meyerc13 you are assuming that National has thought this through beyond the increase in membership and membership fees and the revenue they will generate through the program.

Sorry @@JasonG172 sarcasm is not allowed outside the I&P section. KDD is known for his sincerity on any and all subjects. One has to remember in Cub Scouts, there are no RANKS, only AWARDS. Not every boy needs to earn every award. I have also learned that a lot of the problems with the boys not receiving their awards is a result of 1) the program as delivered by the DL, 2) the boys' attitude, and 3) the parents' involvement. It takes all three to make it happen. I am grinding away on getting a handful of boys their AOL before crossing over into my troop. This weekend with 8 boys will determine a lot of who gets it and who doesn't. I inherited this situation in January so I have had only 5 months to pull it off. 34 boys were offered the opportunity, and at the present time 8 are on track to get it. Of those 34 I'm thinking there are a few who have parents pencil whipping things in the background, and hopefully some are getting the award through their dens/packs. There are three troops in the neighborhood vying for these boys so I'm not in the loop, but I do know there are a lot of boys not getting the AOL but who will still go on to Boy Scouts.

I'm kinda in @@Krampus's camp on this one. A Scout is Thrifty. I never attended Jamboree as a youth, but I went as 2nd ASM to a contingent. Yeah, we camped as patrols, but it was still an major adult run operation. The SPL and ASPL did NOTHING the whole time. The 3rd ASM (one of my Eagle Scouts) and I hung out together. It was a good experience, but had I paid more than the $650 I paid out, I wouldn't do it again. At the prices indicated by those on the forum, I would much rather be backpacking Denali or canoeing the Yukon. It would be cheaper. A Scout is Thrifty.

I showed up for a meeting about 1/2 hour early and my "Space Cadet" boy was there. While I went about my business he went over and started playing the piano. He loves his music and I got serenaded for almost a half hour before my ASM arrived and yelled at him for messing with the CO's property and that he couldn't play the piano! Before the night was over, the ASM and I had a "little visit". How many times is it that the boys are the problem? and how many times is it the adults? By the way, my "Mr. Space Cadet" piano player is also a karate Black Belt, so I know there's hope for him and eventually he'll turn into a great scout. I don't know how much of his problems are a result of his home life but from what I have seen it is a lot.

Tumplines are something one trains with. Using it as you did is as enjoyable as a pair of crutches. I started using them in the BWCA with #85 canoes. Once I realized how handy they were, I started applying them elsewhere. When we went to the BWCA we had 3 people and 4 duffles per canoe. The two boys I was with would grab the duffles and leave me with the canoe. What they didn't realize was each duffle was about #60 each but they would put on on their back and one on the front and take off laughing. It took them about to mid week to realize that #85 canoe vs. #120+ on duffles was why I wasn't complaining. Eventually they went to double portaging which only added to their misery. On the last portage of the float I offered to take duffles if one of the boys took the canoe. They did, but they didn't have a tumpline nor horse-collar PFD so the boy was pretty miserable for 3/4th of a mile. I took my tumpline rigged it to two diffles and didn't have a problem even after 9 days of canoeing. Now Age and Treachery will win out over Youth and Exuberance every time.... I did wait until the duffles were the lightest in that on the last day almost all the food was gone and the duffles were well below the #120. I didn't have the heart to tell them the last portage has the lightest packs. By the way ALICE is a camel.

You are right 'skip, parents are pretty much the same all over the place. They don't want their child to be stigmatized or embarrassed. They don't trust the adults to be able to handle the knowledge and will treat their child differently, so they are reluctant to say something. Only once did we have a serious asthmatic reaction that required outside medical attention and I recognized it quick enough to deal with it. Luckily we were at summer camp and not far afield somewhere. I was ASM for well over 5-6 years before the SM notified me he carried and Epi-Pen for bee stings, so it's not just a parental problem. If one is going to take Safety First seriously, it is more than a whittling safety circle or ax yard, it's what's on the health forms, too.

The PL's don't "meet in the morning" to review the agenda, each patrol has their own agenda. The only "troop" part of the process is that they both decided to go to the same event. Troop A does not confer with Troop B at a camporee, ..Patrol A doesn't confer with Patrol B either. Any interactivity with another group could mean a patrol within the same troop, a patrol outside the troop or maybe even a whole troop. The POR doesn't change. The PL is taking care of his boys. If the boys don't want to do anything at that particular time but hang out at the campsite or take extra time for meal prep, or just go to open swim, the can do that too. The only difference I have noticed is that the older boys tend to be more active and adventuresome than the New and Regular patrols. And, yes, one summer I attended two different summer camps.... the older boys wanted a more primitive camp and the NSP wanted the local mess hall local camp. the regular patrols split one one way (younger regular patrol) and the other the other way, (older regular patrol. It kinda broke down between the age groupings. It just meant I got to go to camp twice that year. At that time they did have an SPL and he went with the older patrols and one of the PL's from the younger group was "acting SPL" for the week of camp when they wanted to have an SPL meeting of sorts. It was the PL of the regular patrol and he did come back and fill in the New patrol PL of what was handed out at the meeting. It was the same process used before they had an SPL. I guess the case could be made that when they go to opening and closing flags and they are assigned a "troop" gathering area, it could be considered a "troop" activity even though they stand together as patrols of the troop. I guess the closest thing to a "troop" activity is our totally adult-led campfire in the evenings. I have a campfire popcorn popper and the PL's know that when they smell popcorn they are invited required to attend the adult area campfire. I use the time to take over the "program" and as I make buckets of popcorn, I chat with the boys about how their day went. I totally control the conversation and insist on the boys having to raise their hands and stand when they answer. I have in the past sent boys home and withheld Scout Spirit advancement for those that couldn't comply with the adult rules at these popcorn campfires.....

So if the patrol method is used, and there is no SPL, then there are no troop activities. Works for me. My boys seem to like the independence of the patrols and generally get along very nicely without the SPL and PLC.

When I had 4 patrols in the troop, the PL's did select an SPL to kinda coordinate things between patrols, attend SPL meetings, etc. kinds of things that assisted them in their duties in the patrols. The patrol QM's however still continued to operate on a 4 patrol QM consensus without having to have a troop QM. I suppose they could have created one if they really felt it necessary. Maybe if they had gotten to 5-6 patrols it would be more of a necessity. I kinda just left them alone with what they felt was necessary. On the other hand we did have boys trying out the different POR's and journaling their activities for POR credit. They might have 2 months worth of QM work, inventorying the troop and patrol inventories, repairing tents, recommending purchases, etc. then moving on to a couple of months as Chaplain Aide duties, did some classes for the NSP and marked down a month or two as Instructor, etc. While "the book" says these positions are to be assigned by the SPL, we didn't have an SPL so the boys kinda assigned themselves to the position. Their journal documentation and evidence of the job being done and done well was enough for the PL to give POR credit under these conditions. Now that I am down to one patrol of all new boys (2 older boys) none of them are yet FC so they are in the process of trying out the different POR's and journaling their insights. This is kind of a "on the job" training for the time when the POR will really count for advancement. With no older boys, the new boys can pick and choose what they want to try out for leadership and not get in anyone's way of advancement while picking up valuable experience in the various positions. Right now I am working with Web II boys who have grouped themselves into two "patrols" and have selected a "PL" for each. My two boys in the troop are both functioning as TG's to this process. So if asked, do I have PL's, my answer is "Kinda" Is it by the book? Nope, one of the PL's was selected by rock, paper, scissors, the other by patrol consensus. So what do the PL's do? They organize the flag ceremonies (alternating) they take attendance, and keep their patrol members on task with what's going on with the AOL instruction. Is any of this "by the book?" Nope. Are the boys learning things? Yep, Are they having fun? Yep. Are they excited about going camping this weekend? Yep. Are they going to be joining up with the troop the end of the month? Yep. Is the SM about to change the way he does things? Nope.

I would advise against the use of PVC in projects, especially if one is cutting it and the boys are breathing in the dust. Stick with wood!

Which is no answer at all. It's not a yes/no question, it's a pick one or the other question. One cannot be the servant to two masters. Mt. 6:24

Let's cut to the chase. blw2's son is APL doing the PL's job because PL got elected and he's sitting back not doing training, basically taking up a leadership opportunity for another scout for the next 6 months. The boys ask why, and all the adults do is recite back, "Because that's what the book says." The situation festers for 6 months and if they haven't already checked out, they get a chance to correct the problem. In the meantime the PL takes the slings and arrows from the adults who spend an inordinate amount of scout time trying to budge this boy off this butt. To no avail! So the boy doesn't get credit for being PL for 6 months. In the meantime blw2's son had to postpone his leadership opportunity credit for 6 months and that too is a total waste of time for him as well. Well, the PL needed his chance at a POR, well, so did blw2's son and in my book he and his fellow patrol members, once they realized their mistake needed a chance to correct things and were denied by the adults that are reciting "the book!" And who's in complete control of this whole fiasco? It ain't the scouts, that's for sure! As SM I am there to create opportunities for the boys. NOT ALL BOYS WANT THEM! NOT ALL THE BOYS ARE READY FOR THEM! And I really don't want to waste my scouting time teaching boys how to tolerate poor leadership for 6 months, I would rather have them exposed to great leadership so they have a chance to learn something useful. I'm not about to have to deal with the hassle of 6 months worth of dysfunctional patrol method just because the adults with the book forbid it. I don't have the discipline problems that will naturally arise because of this entrenchment. Attendance will be down, morale will be poor, the boys will argue and the campouts, if planned at all will be miserable for the boys. The adults will need to constantly referee the situation. I HAVE SEEN IT DONE MANY TIMES OVER THE YEARS! I don't want to hassle with it. I simply say, "It's your problem, you fix it." 99% of the time they dump the worthless PL and put in another one that will do the job. The fix takes about a half hour. On the other hand if the PL is doing a great job at the end of 6 months, he just stays on as long as he and the boys want him to stay on. If that locks up a POR for other boys needing POR credit for advancement, it's the PL's job to find him a POR he can do. It's all part of taking care of your boys. Sorry, I just can't justify to my boys waiting for six months to pass before they can have a functional patrol that the adult leaders aren't yelling at their PL to get his act together. The reason my leaders mature faster than a lot of others is because they don't need to wait 6 months for some slug to get out of their way.... just because some book said that's the way it needs to be done. So what about the slug PL's? eventually they mature and get their opportunities as well. My boys learn from their failures and failing is not a negative thing in the troop. It's just a temporary setback. My POR leaders are either functional or they are history. The boys simply have the authority to run the program effectively and if that isn't happening, they can fix it on the spot...and they do.

I am trained from Cubs to Venturing..... 3 months ago I slipped back into Web II to help the boys crossing over get their AOL and I am in dialog right now with a group of high school kids looking to start a Venturing Crew. The nice thing about it is this weekend is Web II campout.... Should be interesting.....

CA - Crew Adviser, dark green uniform, grey pants.

No up to code on this, but why can't the OA Rep "tap out" the boys in the troop and send them off for ordeal?

When one is a member of a troop and a crew they need two different uniforms. One does not wear a Sea Scout uniform with an Eagle rank sewn on. I have three different uniforms for Scouting, one as UC, one as SM, and one as CA. Even then I don't wear knots on the UC shirt, but I do on the SM and CA uniforms. I wear what is appropriate for the activity I am involved with.

The Jac-Shirt is not part of the BSA official uniform, any more than the BSA blue jeans sold in the catalog. There's a lot of clothing items sold that aren't part of the BSA official uniform. One can sew hundreds of patches on their class-b uniforms because there is no such thing as a class-b uniform. The only restrictions are what goes on the official uniform which very few wear appropriately anyway.

It's what we allow the boy to do that counts. None of my boys "take charge" of anything. They might "take the lead" on a project, or they might "Take care" of the boys, but never "take charge" of anything. How they go about doing that depends on their particular style of leadership, some boys copy the style of their predecessor and others develop their own style. Either way works for me.

The caveat I always use with the parents is, if you don't inform us of a potential problem up-front, the phone call at 1:00 am will be either to come get your child or we'll meet you at the ER. It's remarkable how that loosens the tongues of the parents. I always leave the door open to a private phone call/visit/whatever it takes, to make sure I have all the information necessary to take care of their child. The onus is on the parents. I make sure that all the parents in the room are my witness that I addressed this issue fully because it falls directly under the #1 rule of our troop, Safety First. I let the parents know that either way they are going to be embarrassed, a little bit up front when they tell me the problem or a whole lot when the whole troop finds out later on. Their choice.

This is something that should be addressed BEFORE the activity! Too often we assume everything is okay, never ask if there might be any problems, and then just wing-it and find out it's a bust. BE PREPARED. Ask your parents if they have special needs children BEFORE they make a scene. Let the PL's know what is necessary to take care of his boys. It is amazing how many people just sit around waiting for the inevitable train wreck and then start running around like Chicken Little blaming everyone but themselves for not being prepared in the first place. "I know everyone here in this room has perfect children who are all well versed in exemplary behavior, but are there anything that we ought to know about up-front? We've dealt with bed-wetting, ADD/ADHD, Aspergers, Allergies, home-sickness, you name it, we've had it, so your child isn't going to be any big deal, but it would help if we had a heads-up on any issues so we can make sure your son has the best possible scouting experience...." If parents don't speak up in the group, they are encouraged to call me at home to discuss privately. If the parent wishes to come on the outing they can do so as an observer, and if things go majorly wrong they will be available to help out. Out of all the years of scouting, I have never had to have a parent step in and help out. The PL was informed up-front in private and usually does well. On rare occasion have I as SM had to assist him. Never got beyond that.

The weight of a tumpline is measured in ounces.

As SM, I make the announcement to parents that everyone needs a full uniform. Those that have a problem with that will come to me and we can discuss options. I have had cases where the boy wants to join, needs a uniform and is on his own for the expenses. Usually the family is broken and this kid needs scouting, big time. I buy the uniform and ask the boy to pay back as he is able. Either he does or he returns it to me after he uses it. (By the way, I have never accepted a returned uniform, with all the boy's bling on it, I never have the heart.) I have had these "loans" going for many scouts over the years. Uniforms, summer camp, Philmont, etc. and they all seem to get paid back when the boy's do their fundraising, they repay the "loans" as they are able. Camporee costs $15. Troop will pay $10, boys owe $5. Boy shows up with $15, $5 goes to the unit, $10 to the "loan". Which I drop back into the troop "kitty" anyway. All records of such transactions are verbal agreements between scout and SM. Have I ever gotten "burned" with such activity? Sure, but those that honor the process generally turn out to be some pretty fantastic scouts would never have had the chance otherwise. It kinda balances itself out over the past 35+ years.

According to BSA those are knots worn by adults. I would say no to both. If the boy has earned his Eagle, he wears his rank on his uniform until he turns 18 then changes to an adult knot. If the boy has earned AOL he wears the strip below his rank on his uniform until he turns 18 then changes to an adult knot. While a youth he wears the youth insignia and changes to an adult. When he turns 18, he can wear the adult knots on his Venturing uniform just as any other adult. But he wears the official tan backed knots indicative of Boy Scouting just as the Boy Scout adult wears his Cub Scout color backed knots earned as a Cub leader. There is no such thing as an Eagle or AOL Venturing knot that is worn by a youth or an adult for that matter.

How, if anything, is done "up-front" before any of these issues have a chance to start? Before the boys actually join the unit, while there is one last chance for "adult-led", I always give a SM orientation to the troop. The three rules of the troop are announced, boy-led, patrol-method is clarified, discipline procedures are outlined, and parent's are informed of their role in the troop. Once this is done and everyone agrees that we are all on the same page, the registrations are turned in and the boys take over the operation of the patrols. If an issue gets to the attention of the SM, it has been a serious infraction and has happened only once. The boy came close to loosing his Eagle without a major shift through the appeals process which would have been a major headache for the boy, not me. Otherwise everything seems to run smoothly enough that the PL's can handle the discipline issues by themselves.