Stosh

At the AOL campout last weekend with my boys, one boy built a bird house, another 4 got Whittlin' Chip, some did the memory work, a few worked on knots, etc. etc. It was a weekend of tying up all the loose ends of the events the boys happened to have missed in the previous 5 months. Had we not had the wrap up campout, none of the boys would have earned the AOL. It was kind of a nightmare for the adults to try and organize all the loose ends for the boys, but we were able to pull it off. If it is difficult for the adults, it is miserable for the boys.

Seriously? The Bobcat pin is handed out like parade candy here in this part of the world. 6 months after completing 4th grade I was just turning 10 years old. With that math, one could get that 6 months in, turn 10, earn the AOL and be ready for scouts at 10 years of age. I know some of the boys in my group do not have Webelos awards, some do. However they are all going to earn the AOL The cross-over is May 29th. One boy turns 10 years old on Jun 7 and he's been in Webelos for 14 months. He will have finished 5th grade at age 9. While it is not common, it is possible.

We're on that path whether we like it or not. We just had a posting where a sister let the cat out of the bag on an Eagle candidate who had a child out of wedlock. Seems the CO tried to block the advancement. Maybe next time they'll be more successful. The good name of BSA is on the line, ya know.

The SM is obligated to be the enabler of boy led, patrol method scouting. If not he's not doing his job. The program works just fine, the SM doesn't need to be some sort of "gate keeper" standing vigil to protect the good name of the BSA and it's program. Sorry, but I left my first troop because of a SM like this and have never regretted it and never been happier dealing with boys that aren't frustrated and demoralized by hear the word NO all the time.

"The Speech"? How is this not just plain politickin'? First of all a POR is basically a Position of RESPONSIBILITY, not leadership! Sure, as PL I can convince my patrol members to keep busy at their tasks at a campout. Of course a gun or whip would augment those efforts tremendously, but in BSA we frown on such things. Instead we can always fall back on fear, intimidation, threats of no advancement, and downright bullying. At least those don't leave a mark. Convincing the PLC to see things your way? Now there's a true definition of Leadership. Of course one will have to leave the guns and whips at home and rely on coersion, politics, promises one may or may not be able to keep or threats of no involvement or support if one doesn't get their own way. Kinda like a tantrum kind of thingy. That sometimes works. WAY TOO MUCH DRAMA for me. I'll just stick with Servant Leadership, support from the troop officers including the SPL and PL's that "take care of their boys". They can have elections/selections anytime they want. They can select anyone they want, they can associate with anyone they want in a patrol. Don't need any SM political pump priming, nor wait until some magic time to do the switches, or any other such nonsense. The group selects a PL. He does the job. If he doesn't someone else is given the RESPONSIBILITY to function as a supportive servant leader. If they do, they stay for ever, if they don't, they're history. No drama, no hassles, no threats, convincing, or politics. Just functional units that determine their own destiny. It works for the new scouts just as well as for the veteran scouts and everyone in between. If there is major dysfunctionality or drama 99% of the time it is adult instigated as they try and set the pace of what should happen. This occurs most often when the adults having trained the boys simply can't trust them to do what's best for themselves.

Be careful @@Tampa Turtle you're messing with BSA's most sacred cow here.

The awards are age specific, not rank building. It kinda takes away the whole concept of one builds on another. While a first grader one works on Tiger activities and if they successfully complete the requirements they get the award. While a second grader one works on Wolf.... If they didn't get Tiger that first year they cannot go back and pick it up. It's just a lost opportunity for the boy. When one gets to the Webelos level, they have two awards one for the age and then the "Other One" Now they seem to think it's not necessary that any of the awards be issued prior to awarding the highest award in Cub Scouting. One can come into the Webelos program and only work on AOL award requirements and bypass all other awards in scouting. It is as if the Webelos award is now just bling for those wishing to have a complete set of award badges. It is not like Boy Scout ranks where one builds on another. In Cub Scouts all the age awards are stand alone awards and the AOL has become just another award. It isn't even the last award. A boy joining Cub Scouts at age nine can have his AOL award as his very first award. Therefore if the Webelos boys wish to work towards the Webelos award, I would issue it as soon as he has met all the requirements, the same as any of the other awards in Cub Scouts.

@@ianwilkins The really sad part of this all is that the corruption just keeps getting worse no matter where in the world one happens to be.

"List the names of individuals who know you well and would be willing to provide a recommendation on your behalf". A list of names, no letter required, no survey with check boxes required, just a list of names of those willing to provide a recommendation. I would assume (there's that nasty word) that nothing is necessary unless the committee makes a request for the the recommendation. This is the stickler I have mentioned previously in our Council. A SM's recommendation is "necessary." No it's not. They sent me a survey type form that had only one choice. "I strongly feel this candidate is worthy of the rank of Eagle." While the "recommendation" from the SM is not required, I simply tossed the paper away. It took 6 months for the boy to prove to me it was worth it to go back to the Council office and get another form and fill it out. It always amazes me that this list is even necessary. An employer? Who's that the elderly lady next door the boy mows lawn for? A parent? Yeah right, they're going to say something nasty about their son. Religious reference? A $10 certificate off the internet will allow your best buddy to fill in that gap. Get over it people. The boy has fulfilled the requirements for advancement. The Eagle song and dance routine is not going to do anything but hype the marketability of the rank. BSA Eagles were around a lot longer than leadership service projects. I wonder what they were measuring in a candidate that we don't today?

that's citizenship, not a political activity. Voting is a citizenship issue, who one votes for is political.

Just remember, if one stays out of the whole issue of patrol member selection and PL selection, they can never come back on on the adults as having any blame in the train wreck. For many years I have not had any issues with my involvement in patrol selection or personality conflicts, or buddies being lazy together, etc. or whatever. The boys caused the problem, they can fix it. I just sit back and pour another cup of coffee and let them have at it. It usually takes longer for me to drink my coffee than it does for them to correct the problem. Form your patrols and let me know who's going to be the PL. I have no idea why adults think that they have to be part of that whole process in the first place. Making decisions like that places a huge bull's eye on one's back. I just as soon have it on someone else's back. Thank you.

The torque has nothing to do with the wording, just the intent on the part of candidate. $10 gets one a certificate and they can then write their own reference. Fits the wording of the requirement..... Like I said, Yoga has a religious element so just go with that.

The packs here really don't care what the Boy Scouts have to deal with. The boys are out the door and out of sight. What happens after that is of no concern of theirs. Yes, we have the whole troop there to welcome the new boys into the Troop. Neckers are passed out, books given cross over the bridge and then NOTHING. They don't even let on they won't be joining up. We do not use ISA's and so we get stuck with the cost of the snub. And maybe YOU don't cross over the boys who show no interest in Boy Scouts, but that's not universal throughout the country, obviously. All the packs around here do and there's no oooh's or aaaah's when the boy crosses over and then turns away from the 2-3 waiting troops and goes sits with his parents. This year, and in all future years, the packs can do whatever it is they wish to do and that's fine with us. The TROOP will do the cross-over as the "initiation" into the troop. None of this collect the goodies and run stuff. We pick a neutral location for the event, invite the packs and the Webelos families that will have boys crossing over and we will know by who shows up whether or not they are serious about Boy Scouts or not. If there is any monies coming from the packs, it is put into the general fund of the troop.

It's just like any other of the requirements, if one torques and twists hard enough one can make it mean anything they want it to. KDD is correct. if one really wants to get right down to it. If God's chosen people are white, then KKK is a religious organization as is the Masons, Karate, and Yoga. What's to say a family isn't starting their own little cult.... Who's to say that isn't acceptable?

And because it's call graduation it implies to the parents this is the end of the program and now they are free to engage in any and all other programs for their boys. Boy Scouts is just one of another option out there. I crossed over 9 boys from a pack's graduation. I handed out books and neckers and NEVER SAW ANY OF THOSE BOYS EVER AGAIN. I have seen boys cross over the bridge and then go sit with their parents because they had no intention of continuing on in Boy Scouts, the program is over, done, fini. The "cross over" was a joke, but little Johnny didn't feel left out of walking over the bridge to nowhere. Graduation 50 years ago marked the end of something. If that's the message one wishes to promote, fine, but I've seen hundreds of potential scouts over the years simply disappear after graduation.

Just keep the bling comin' National makes a fortune off of it. If it's a rank, why do ALL Boy Scouts regardless of when they start all have to start with Scout Rank then Tenderfoot, etc. but in Cub Scouts one can come in at age 9, get AOL, the highest "Rank" without having to do the rest. Kinda like getting drafted and because of your age, you're a general in the Army or a admiral in the Navy. Call it what you want. If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck..... or A rose by any other name is still a rose. One can correct me on this when the day comes when a 16 year old joins Boy Scouts and walks away with his Eagle after doing just the Eagle requirements. Sorry, but there are two entirely different dynamics going on regardless of what BSA literature messes up. One of my feeder packs has never done awards or what you call ranks. From Tiger until Webelos II all the pack did was a Pack meeting aka party and an outing. If any of the awards were earned it was up to the parents, they didn't even have DL's. I took on that Pack's Webelos II and another Packs burnt out WDL's boys and are getting them the AOL. Last year that would have been impossible. Now the bling is available with just a little bit of effort and it has nothing to do with the advancement through the ranks.

I may not have been in Cub Scouts as a WDL for 20+ years, but I do know that the program has not changed that much. First of all there are NO RANKS in Cub Scouts. There are AWARDS. One does NOT NEED TO GET THE TIGER award before working on his Wolf award. If the boy doesn't do the work he doesn't get the award. It means nothing towards the next year of Cubbing. Do better next year.... Secondly there is no such thing as GRADUATION in Cub Scouts. They have a year to earn an award and if they don't they simply go on to the next year. Nothing more, nothing less. AOL is the highest AWARD in Cub Scouting, not the highest RANK. Once a boy either reaches the age of 11 or has been awarded the AOL age of 10 he simply joins a Boy Scout troop. WOW, did anyone realize that an 11 year old with no Cub experience can simply walk in off the street and be a Boy Scout? What a radical concept!!! That person wouldn't even have gone through any pomp and circumstance of a bridgey kind of thingy. Poor boy, his ego must be crushed! The more hype the adults project on the boys the more pain they will inflict with their "OH WOW!" ceremonies. Cut out the hyped pageantry and quit making a big deal with the acquisition of outside bling. Instead celebrate the inside accomplishments of each boy. He did his best, that's all that counts. If he didn't do his best, no amount of bling or awards or ceremonies is going to cover that up inside the boy's feelings. Stroke his self-esteem, but it does nothing for his self-respect. I whittle in my spare time. I hand out little wooden trinkets when I deem fit to do so. It has nothing to do with advancement, it has nothing to do with any written requirements, it's just some little token I have carved to present to a boy who "just needs" it. We all know who those boys are. It is surprising how many of those little wooden things end up on the display tables of Eagle Scouts at their ECOH's. They are totally non-scout, mean nothing to anyone except the scout and his SM. The Eagle and I are the only ones who know what that trinket really means.

When we were getting ready for the citizenship part of AOL award we were going to bring in a state senator. One of the boys made a negative remark against Trump and I said, "Too bad you're too young to vote or my vote would cancel out yours." Then another boy piped up and said something negative against Clinton and I said, "too bad you're too young to vote or my vote would cancel out yours." Then they both got the notion that somehow I was going to vote twice. I said, "Nope." Then they got serious and wanted to know who I was going to vote for and I told them it depended on which of the two scouts I liked better." Eventually we got around to voting for policies and not people. It was a good dialogue. By the way, the Senator I had come in to visit with the boys is one I did not nor would never vote for, but she did a very nice job covering citizenship with the boys and kept politics completely out of it. Okay, so she gained one small Brownie point from me.... Discussing citizenship and discussing politics are two different discussions.

Welcome and thank you for your service. It's been 20+ years since I was advancement committee person of a pack of 120 Cubs. I can assure you I understand the pain involved. 1992, 120 Cubs, 12 Dens, $800+ worth of awards, Blue & Gold in less than a week. Sort it out and be ready with the way the CM wants it on the awards table. Remember one can't put the cards in the ziplock bags before the CM has a chance to sign them, which he has no intention of doing until he gets to the B&G. ANYTHING that would make that job easier is better than doing it on paper. Back then I did it on spreadsheets, but then I tend to do well with Lotus 123 and Excel. I had it all laid out so that if an "x" went in a box, I knew what badge to order kind of thing. It produced a shopping list for me when I went to the Scout Shop to buy this stuff. Hopefully there are better things now available that are better for the less computer inclined out there. In Boy Scouts I used TroopMaster. It worked well for what we needed it to do. My current troop uses TroopMaster now too, but is also set up in ScoutBook. It's easier to work around a couple of computer glitches in software than it is to reinvent the wheel for your troop. I would stick to either of those too and learn to work around the problems. Again, Welcome!

I've watched this thread ramble on for 4 pages now. So I'm going to point out the elephant in the room. There are some boys that have earned their award in Cub Scouting and some who haven't. So, how's about giving the awards to those who have earned them and a pep talk about stepping up their game in Scouting to those who didn't. If they don't learn from their mistakes they are simply going to repeat the process until it hits a point of real pain and disappointment, like a job advancement opportunity. One is only perpetuating the problem by giving into the gimme, gimme, gimme attitudes of today's entitled children. They have learned self-esteem and self-importance, but have totally missed the lesson on self-respect. Scouting is a learning process.

It is no longer policy for Boy Scouts to be involved in any political activity even if it's non-partisan. The closest one gets today is Memorial Day observances and 4th of July picnics. They do have 3 MB's on citizenship that seem to give some kind of political education and we do say the Pledge at opening flags.

If one finds it necessary to win something do a Cake Walk. Everyone brings a cake and everyone takes a cake home. Otherwise if it's a competition, there's only one winner, the rest are learners.

Of the 3 feeder packs in the area, 1 did AOL on their own. One simply did nothing for the boys and the third Web II leader simply gave up half way through. We picked up the slack for the two dens not working on AOL and did our own thing. It was majorly difficult but we were able to get AOL for about 1/3rd of the boys who stuck it out with us. Unless we need a major recruiting shot in the arm, we don't plan on doing this again in the future.

If Frustrated apologized 4 times, that's 3 times more than was necessary. End of discussion, if Gunship isn't going to accept the apology, then there's nothing more to be said or done. It's now history, just leave it there.

I'll give it a shot! I'm desperate enough at this point to try anything.