Stosh

Every new group (as well as the older groups) are a box of chocolates. As soon as one thinks they have it all figured out, everything changes. The first session I hold with the boys after crossing over is all adult driven. They get the bullying speech, the 3 rules of the troop, etc orientation things. The second session the SM sits back and listens to what the boys want out of the deal and unless it is against BSA policy, event rules, or breaks one of the three rules of the troop, then the answer is always "Yes, I can help you with that." At the end of the session of listening I turn to the new PL, whether he be a new scout or an older scout come down to be with the NSP, and ask, "What do we do first and when do we begin." After two meetings, we have 2 patrols and directions to the older boys on what advancement issues they need to address first to get them ready for camping. Menu planning, is usually the big first step along with proper packing and equipment for the outing. First Aid kits are put together, etc. all so they can get out and do something. Both patrols want to do a easy river canoe/kayak float with sand bar camping. So that's what we're gonna do. Did they bite off more than they can chew? Probably, but that's an important lesson to learn too.

In this case, common sense would be revolutionary.

It's inventing new things to solve problems that didn't exist that are causing the problems today.

There's no such thing as McDonalds or Burger King because Courtesy Corp and Burger King, Inc. don't own restaurants either.

I think what I might be doing is a "regular" patrol made up of all new scouts with a TG helping the new PL stay on course for the first year or so. I just call it a NSP. At the end of that time period, the TG goes back to his regular patrol and the "NSP" is now a real regular patrol. It's just a matter of semantics. I guess. This is how my scouts in my former troop preferred to do it and out of necessity this is how my new troop is doing it. One of my current unit's NSP has selected one of the TF boys to be their PL. That will be as it is. There are no other older boys. The other NSP has the other older boy but not as the PL. I have given him the heads up he will need to function from "behind the scenes" in support of the new PL as their stand in TG. One NSP with an older PL and no TG and one NSP with a newbie PL and a TG. Been there, done that, both ways. It'll work. Is it the new "tradition" for the troop? I doubt it, every year the boys can recreate themselves anyway they wish.

Hedge, You are correct with your thinking, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it." That is a good adage to live by. Unfortunately the horse and wagon concept worked great for hundreds if not thousands of years. Even if it "ain't broke" leave the door open for ways of making "what works" better. When I have a NSP with a TG watching over it and SPL backing it up, and maybe a 2nd or 3rd year scout trying out his wings as a PL of the NSP, I have in reality a mixed aged patrol, but the dynamics are far different than what BSA would call a regular patrol. Same set of different parameters for the Venture patrols. There's nothing in the rule book about a hot-shot younger brother of someone in the venture patrol inviting his younger brother into the patrol. It's just that if there is any "mixing" in my patrols it is for functionality and efficiency. The new Webelos boys cross over and want to select their DC as their PL? Now one has a mixed age NSP. If the boys want to scatter the new scouts throughout the other patrols fine if that works, but what works for the unit... is it what works for that particular group of new scouts joining or are they square pegged into the unit's round hole because that's the way the round hole says it works best? Every group of new boys that come into my units has always been evaluated on what works best for them according to THEIR choices. Not the other way around. It cuts down on a lot of group dynamic issues that would otherwise arise.

Once the units start making up their own rules, it pretty much ceases to be a BSA unit. I think other organizations like Trail Life USA would be better suited for their needs, but it doesn't have the prestige of the BSA branding. This is where the Paper Scouts idea came from and is perpetuated. They all look good on paper. All show dogs are A.K.C. registered, but not all A.K.C. registered dogs are show dogs.

Why bother to do any training? If everyone is just going to make up their own rules as they go along, I don't see any use of training on a program that no one is going to use anyway. Oh, by the way, it does give great comfort that as long as people do such things, it keeps this forum running full steam with all the problems it causes..

https://www.amazon.com/Toilet-Training-Less-Than-Day/dp/0671693808 https://www.amazon.com/Potty-Train-Your-Child-Just/dp/0743273133 http://www.pottytrainingconcepts.com/A-How-to-Potty-Train-One-Day.html There's a number of books out there that give the general idea.

I would agree that he should go. But DO NOT sign him up for everything the camp has to offer. Get him into the S->FC sessions, maybe one two at the most EASY MB's, basketry, wood carving, leatherwork, etc. A little something he can take home and show the parents. His first experience is to go and learn what summer camp is all about, the tents, the cooking, the MB's the programs, the fun. DON"T make it a school lesson, it's an experience lesson. If he likes something he does well already, then capitalize on that. He like swimming? Do the MB, but don't force him to "finish" it if it's too much. If he thinks sailing boats is cool, have him do that. Make sure he does what HE wants to do the first year. If he says he just wants to go and goof off with his buddies, that's okay the first year too. He'll see what the other boys are doing and the second time around he'll have a whole new perspective on what summer camp is all about, just keep it on HIS terms.

One has to look at the overall outline of what BSA is trying to do with their tiered patrols. First of all lets look at the mixed age patrols.They incorporate boys from BSA's three tiers at the same time. Each patrol is a "regular" patrol that have to do certain things in order to make the process work. Yes, when a new boy comes into the group he's with experienced boys and they are responsible for taking care of him. He's enough of a minority so no one really notices. However, if the Troop Instructor is going to teach S->FC lessons, the new boys will need to break out of the patrol to do so, otherwise, Troop Instructors are pretty much a useless POR. So that interrupts patrol activity. Now the older boys want to do Philmont, but obviously not everyone in the patrol is on the same page so once again, an ad hoc arrangement is made to get the older boys to high adventure again breaking up the continuity of the patrol method. Otherwise, one can simply ignore those dynamics that BSA points out as important and go with nothing but regular patrols. The new guys can figure it out on their own and the opportunities for high adventure will never be a patrol activity. New boys that are overwhelmed with "hit the road running" will drop out, and the older boys will tire of never getting to do the big stuff and buy cars, get a job and find a girlfriend, any of which is more exciting than taking on new 6th grade scouts yet again. I kinda like the BSA tiered approach, it has a little for everyone, age appropriate and opens up more opportunities that a one-size-fits-all doesn't.

I find this process very convoluted and ridiculously awkward for both the TG and the PL's. If one is not going to have NSP's there is no need to have a TG unless one needs to wear a patch and do no work. Then it's a great POR. One dare not have an ASM assigned to the patrol to meddle in the operation of the patrol with the new boys, but it's totally okay to have another boy (TG) meddle in the operation of the patrol under the disguise of boy led, patrol method. So one has 8 new boys and they buddy up and go to 4 different mixed aged patrols. A TG is assigned to work with 2 boys in a single patrol? That's really not a whole lot better than wearing the patch with no work. The only thing that TG can do is get in the way of the mixed patrol trying to assimilate the new boys along with whatever else they are trying to do. I just see it as a major distraction to 4 patrols when the whole business could be put into one patrol, they select their leadership and a TG is on-hand to do the things described in the list of duties mentioned above. All the new orientation/instruction is focused into one area, not spread around to the various patrols to all deal with differently under different PL's. The PL has better things to do with his time running his patrol than worrying about teaching some new scout how to tie a square knot, and everything else, every time a boy joins his patrol. This doesn't have to be complicated and isn't when done according to the BSA training set-up. I'm thinking troops who are having trouble with NSP's and champion mixed patrols are those that haven't figured out how to best and most effectively use a TG. They are the key to NSP's.

A TG with no NSP is like a PL with no patrol. I have no idea how to jury rig the POR into something other than what it was intended. I'd go with independent Instructors that all have different forte's and they rotate around the various patrols doing what they do best. I can see a power clash between TG of a mixed aged patrol and the PL. The PL is responsible for his people, the TG is only going to get in the way. Maybe the reason the NSP doesn't work in the troop is because one has not figured out to best utilize the TG. All my TG's have been great with the NSP's. One of my best TG's was one of my Eagle Scouts.

Do a Google search on hiking boots or such, then notice the ads around everything else you do on the internet, including this forum! The reason why cyber crime and identity theft is becoming so popular is because it's SOOOOOOoooooo easy. No only do we leave the doors to our house unlocked, we tapes our passwords on our computers and combination code on the safe. I used to play games with telemarketers just for fun. Now I play games with scammers on Craigslist, etc. I have almost a million dollars worth of fake checks and expect the FBI, CIA, and NSA along with Homeland Security to be showing up at my door any day now.

Welcome to the forum, hopefully some of our suggestions will help. Here's my take: Put out a general announcement via whatever medium you use stating that such paperwork is required for camp.without the paperwork and monies turned in on time we cannot hold a reservation. Now the ball is in their court. Then as they turn in the paperwork and money, produce a list of the boys going to camp. Remind the boys and their parents if their names is not on the list they are not registered for camp. If they wish to wait until the last minute, it will cost extra due to the late fees and availability of slots at camp. If they wish to have a guaranteed spot at camp, get the paperwork and money in by such and such a date. If we do not receive the paperwork, "we'll do the best we can to get your boy to camp." This might be a bit harsh but some camps require a certain number of adults attending as a ratio to the number of boys going. Along with the last minute paperwork, one might also have to find a last minute adult to fill in. If that is not possible, then there's a limit on the number of boys that can go. Get the paperwork in so we know how many adults are needed. If Mr. Smith is asked to go along and the boys all back out on their going to camp, that means Mr. Smith just screwed over this family's vacation time. Put out consequences for their procrastination. If you are hard nosed enough this year, I will guarantee you won't be asked to do it next year. If they like what you did, you could be the coordinator forever. This ridiculous process is a result of many years of teaching from spineless parents. They see their child doing something wrong and the first thing they say is "ONE!" The child smiles and keeps right on doing what they were doing so the parents says, "TWO!" and until the parent draws a breath to say "Three", they keep doing it. My kids had an unfortunate childhood. They never got to One! They never saw it coming. They grew up looking over their shoulder a lot, but they were pretty well behaved. Surprisingly they don't procrastinate much either. Treat the parents like adults, don't do the ONE, TWO, THREE thingy, they should have outgrown it by the time they reach parenthood.

For some odd reason I don't seem to have this kind of problem in my troop. I have a NSP that does it's thingy with the new boys and TG. One patrol picked one of the older boys to be the PL so they will not need a TG, The other patrol picked one of their own, but the other older boy will function as TG for that patrol. When I had a broader range of boys in my old troop, the older boys would do their thingy with their patrols and the venture patrols pretty much have carte blanche their with activities. Right now I have 8 NS's that signed on 2 weeks ago and 2 older TF boys. They pretty much do whatever it takes to have fun. They are gearing up for summer camp and have already been out camping and having fun. They took turns at the fund raiser brat sale (2nd one) to help defray the cost of camp. The two older boys have done the non-mess hall camp and having to set up their tents when they get to summer camp, but have chosen a summer camp with mess hall and mini-cabins to accommodate the imbalance between old and young boys. The older boys will pick MB's but the younger boys will do the sessions of S->FC while at camp. It's kind of a win-win for everyone.

Keep it in mind FB has a way of reposting beyond one's circle of friends and relatives. I get posts showing up about my firends and family by people I do not know. Even with private settings, one can never be sure how much and how far any post one makes may travel.

Don't feel bad, I've never been invited to staff WB.... Or anything else in the council..... Not even attending train the trainers. I bet it's been 10 years since I was asked to do a session for U of Scouting. Sometimes it's a good thing to be a boy led, patrol method heretic. The last session I taught was a one time session on fire building, wood selection, woods tools, etc. I asked for two hours. They scheduled me for 10:00 in the morning. After two hour no one wanted to go to lunch, but kept the question/answer session going for another 45 minutes. They wolfed down lunch in 15 minutes to make the 1:00 pm session. It isn't everyday that they learn how to make a fire with wet wood and no matches....

Landfills loaded with biohazard material is better than the heated soapy water? The eco breakdown of the diaper material is measured in eons......Cotton diapers are compost-able. By the way, I toilet trained my children in one day, the Saturday after their 2nd birthday. The eco impact of my children is non-evident anywhere in the world today.

All it takes is one beef with a kid and if there's no 2nd adult to back you up, it's his word against yours......and it would seem that in this day and age, yours doesn't count. Take my word for it. The police will listen to "your side of the story", but all they are interested in is "Where there any witnesses?" Your word is meaningless.

"With all due respect, Mr. SM, I would prefer to turn in the card tomorrow. Thank you for your signature. If he won't give up the card at least get a photo copy of it. That's the beauty of smartphones.

There are troops that are Eagle Mill advancement oriented and then there are those that are not. It's easier and far less hassles from the parents to do the Eagle Mill route. But if one follows BSA policy, boy led, patrol method does take longer and will instill skills longer than a "once and done" check mark on a piece of paper. I'm in my 2nd year of a new troop and I've gone from 5 registered last year to 10 this year. A lot of S->FC training, quite a bit of which is adult led. I have only 2 boys out of 10 that are TF, the rest newbies. My TF scouts are "teaching" the new boys and doing fairly well. An adult could do it a lot better and quite a bit faster. But that's not what the program is all about.

A Scout is Obedient. A Scout follows the rules of his family, school, and troop. He obeys the laws of his community and country. If he thinks these rules and laws are unfair, he tries to have them changed in an orderly manner rather than disobeying them. I post this not for the Eagle candidate, but for the SM. It's time he/she starts living the Scout Law they are supposedly teaching.

Well Free Speech does include offensive and racist language, but one's character dictates whether or not it is freely spewed, and of course what is offensive to one person is not offensive to the next. One just needs to be aware of that or suffer the consequences.