Stosh

Welcome to the forum! Good question, I've never seen one. Can you post a pic?

Yep as the post says. The boy with the 4 questions went on to be the Golden Eagle Banquet speaker for the council's major donor fund raiser. The boy did not just rattle on wasting time, he gave a full and complete detail of an answer to their questions. They asked about his Eagle Project and he started out, "I know you have the details of the written report, but let me tell you about the background work I did....." The guys on the board weren't in any hurry to cut him off.

Not necessarily. Those with an intolerant political agenda will sue. Those who are tolerant will just consider the source and just walk away.

Can't say it loosened any of its standards, just changed them to something else.

Scouting "THRIVES?" Lot of wishful thinking there.

When dealing directly with my boys on important issues one does not need to assume anything. My sarcasm and/or kidding is obvious. If not pay attention next time. I try my best to be clear, but there are those on forums that will always assume the worst on comments and I have no control over that, nor do I worry about it. It's not my problem. Normal convention for the EBOR's around here is the boy sits quietly and fields the questions posed to him. He can either grunt a one or two word answer and get another question or he can go into a long dissertation on the subject explaining in great detail how it has impacted his life and future and postpone any new questions until the board members interrupt him. The smiley face indicates that when the boy takes charge of his EBOR and controls the flow of the discussion in his favor, it's a really fun thing to watch. Boys who abdicate this control generally end up feeling like they got the 5th Degree. My smiley faces generally indicate that although important, what I am saying need not be taken as dead serious.

Wow, Hedge, your son did a heroic job and the other leaders really stepped up. That's one heck of an uphill battle, but stop and think for a moment..... If your son and a few of his buddies can pull off this dramatic of a change after 1 week of summer camp, can this be an example of what might happen of the SM stepped back and let the boys have at it at this level when they get back home? A troop of 50 boys where only half are active carries a heavy dead wood component dragging down the active boys. There is no way any long term continuity can be established when it's apple-cart-upside-down at every turn. Building the kind of trust necessary to bond together in a patrol takes time. All the boys are learning is that nothing stays the same. I had my Webelos boys from WB Ticket stay together and go into the Troop where they stayed together all the way and were not satisfied until they all Eagled. One boy moved out of the area, but the other 5 stick together and no one dared step in between any of them. I have over time had patrols merge, but did so on a cooperative agreement, no adults were involved and it was totally the boy's decision because both patrols had gotten down to 3-4 boys in each one. That is different or of the Venture patrol takes on new members of more experienced boys, that's also a boy-driven decision. I stay as far away as possible when it comes to the makeup of the patrols, including the patrol leadership. You may have quoted me when you said the leaderss should be taking care of their boys, but here's another one, "Mr. SM, with all due respect, I would like the chance to try out my leadership....on my own."

I saw that too and the first thing I thought of where's a good editor when you need one? Then again maybe he has 7 teenagers at home and this is nothing new for him.....

I teach my boys that the longer the answer they provide the less time the panel will have to ask another question. Short answers means many questions. Long answers means fewer questions. I had my one boy get asked only 4 questions for his whole EBOR. His buddy the same night got 22 questions. Some boys listen to my advice, others don't.

We give 2 pieces of different colored paracord to each boy when they join the troop. They fuse the 4 ends tie two together at one end with whipping. Then they are "required" to keep it in their shirt pocket and have ready to demonstrate their knot knowledge at any time. OH, MY Mom forgot to empty pockets before sending through the washing machine! It's the one thing that didn't get wrecked. The color combo also tells me what level boy is in the troop and this year's NSP is blue and yellow, last year was red and white, year before that black and white, etc. The Blue and Yellow boys get more time to demonstrate their knots than the Black and White guys.

Hedge, I totally agree with what you posted regarding SPL and if some of the boys were doing double duty i.e. ASPL/QM and such it wasn't clear. The point I was making was that the smaller troops can easily handle the lack of any SPL and until enough work gets generated to justify the position, it can be handled most often with an ad hoc SPL such as at a camporee or summer camp or a consensus of the 2 or 3 PL's. By the time one gets to the 4-5 patrol level, then there's enough coordination and communication needs that a full-time SPL can be very useful. 6+ patrol level the SPL is mandatory! The troops that parade around with a PL and seven boys AND an SPL? How can that SPL not be walking all over the PL's authority on the one hand or totally doing nothing more than getting POR credit on the other hand? Okay, so we have 2 patrols and an SPL. What's the SPL's function? Run a PLC with 2 members? Gets to vote with the PL's and break ties so one patrol can get what it wants over the other patrol? Or do the two PL's just sit down and hash things out on inter patrol activities So one patrol decides on Camp A for summer camp because it has a great first year program and the other Camp B because of it's high adventure program. SM and parent goes to one camp and ASM and parent goes to the other. No big deal. Where does the SPL fit in? At which ever camp he goes to he's pretty useless because the PL can do the SPL job when they get there. I used the example of two different camps to emphasize the autonomy of the patrol method Had they both been going to the same camp, sure, the NSP PL would have deferred to the Regular Patrol PL to stand in as the ad hoc SPL. With 2 patrols we're talking a troop of about 12-16 boys here and still struggling to define a real job for the SPL position. So now we're up to 18 to 24 boys in three patrols. 1 NSP PL and 2 Reg Patrols or maybe for illustration sake, 1 Regular and 1 Venture Patrol PL's. So, who's the natural ad hoc SPL for the summer camp and/or camporee? The Venture Patrol PL? Not necessarily, depending on whether or not the High Adventure program for the summer camp is on-site or off-site. If it's off site, the Venture Patrol is gone most of the week and the SPL will need to stay on-site and take care of the NSP and Regular Patrols while at camp and he misses out on the HA activities. Suck it up cupcake, that's what SPL's do. Or the Regular PL simply does the SPL routine and the Venture PL goes off with his patrol on the HA activities. 4 patrol? 24 to 32 boys? Now we're getting at the tipping point of needing an SPL to start sorting things out. That's quite a good sized troop to now see the need for a full-time SPL. 1 NSP, 2 Regular and 1 Venture patrols. The dynamics of things being pulled three different ways necessitates someone with the ability to handle 4 boys (PL's) with divergent needs and interests. The NSP PL wants the local council camp because of the First Year program is good. The 2 Regular PL's are itchy for something a bit different this year and the Venture Patrol is wanting Philmont. Now we begin to see an SPL that is going to have to earn his patch supporting the 4 PL's.and getting them to the programs and activities the want for the summer. It's not just, "Who's going to go to the SPL meeting at summer camp" kind of thing, it's going to require some serious Servant Leadership of taking care of his PL's to pull it off. 5 patrol? 30 to 40 boys? Yep, now we can easily see the need for an SPL. Maybe he came onboard at the 4 patrol level to gain some experience, but now he has some serious sleeve rolling up to to. Now he is going to need some real staff, too. He needs a qualified TG to handle 1 maybe 2 NSP's, a Troop QM to make sure the 5 patrols' equipment is kept organized, a Scribe that can handle the organizational management of funds and paper work of supporting 5 patrols. etc. 6-7 patrols? 36 to 48+ boys? Now it's mandatory to have a functional SPL AND STAFF! And I emphasize staff. The reason maybe that troops find their SPL's running all over burning themselves out is because they don't have a functional troop level staff to help them. The SPL doesn't need to do it all anymore than the PL has to do it all on the patrol level. He has staff, use them as they are supposed to function! Hedge, you indicated your son, the SPL was quite busy at camp..... how big is the troop, how many patrols, and how many troop officers did he have to help him? You mentioned an ASPL was functioning as a QM when they were unloading the equipment. Where was the QM? or isn't the troop big enough to justify a QM? You see, it's not an issue of right vs. wrong, it's an issue of troop structure fitting the needs of the boys. How can the structure take care of the boys or do we have a structure just because BSA makes patches for POR's so the boys can sit around and get advancement credit? I"m not suggesting this is happening in troops, I'm only indicating I have seen many cases where this is happening and I don't think it's unique only to my neck of the woods. Having a troop of 75-100 boys without an SPL would be stupid, without a QM, Scribe, etc. would be ridiculous. Add on Bugler, Chaplain Aide, DC's and other staff positions it makes it mandatory to have troop staff to coordinate and take care of the PL's and their boys. I use GBB's Patrol Method of making sure every boy in the unit has a leadership job to function at. Whether he be a patrol QM or the troop QM it makes no difference. The only difference between a patrol QM and a troop QM is the patrol QM is worried about his boys in his patrol getting the right equipment at the right time. The troop QM makes sure he's successful at that. Same for the SPL, the troop Scribe, etc. All these troop level officers are there to insure the success of the PATROLS. If that's happening, then I as SM am happy.

By the way. I am taking my boys next week to summer camp. I haven't been to that camp in 15 years. All the boys are Webelos crossovers. One patrol. They have selected their PL, APL, QM, Scribe, GrubMaster and ActivityMaster. Should be an interesting week. I have high hopes they will win the overall camp-wide games.

Interesting stuff.... Just my 2-cents to indicate probably why my SPL's "don't exist" when the troop was small. With this broken down this way, No one ever seems to be overwhelmed. The PL gets the "brunt" of responsiblity but he has a fully function assistant to help him if he uses him correctly. SPL is just an information gatherer at the SPL meeting so that each patrol doesn't have to send a representative. Just an efficiency thing. Depending on how busy the NSP is the TG can sometimes function as the SPL in some instances but he is usually quite busy with the new boys that it is difficult to break away for administrative issues. All in all, I just don't see where the SPL is ever an over-worked position if the PL's are all doing their jobs. It was interesting how the SPL came about in my troop. The boys became a 5 patrol troop and one of the PL's said something about why did they always have to be looking to the SM for support. I said they didn't. Just pick someone from the troop who could do that. They picked their best APL to fit that role. He had been assisting 1 PL, now he was assisting 5. Worked out just fine.

My former troop went to a "new" camp after having a poor experience at the council camp. They did their own thing, boy led, patrol method, and it must have caught the eye of the camp director somewhere along the way because somewhere along the way, my acting "SPL" gets an application to join the camp staff without even asking for it. He went the next summer as the Assistant Director of High Adventure and pretty much had a blast for the summer. The Servant Leadership style of leadership has a noticeable impact on those around, even if all they are doing is observing. By the way the boys didn't go back that next year because they found another camp they wanted to try. Scouting "careers" for the individual scout may not always be in line with the troop plans. It's always good to experience life outside the troop when it comes to scouting. It shows that one can stand on their own two feet without being propped up by the troop.

Yeah, I can see the problem, summer camp located 6 miles outside of Yellowstone with Wednesday off to go into the Western Museums of Cody on Wednesday and catch a rodeo that evening with a swing through Yellowstone before heading home is of no interest to most boys. Turkey dinner? Yep, that has it's appeal, the one camp we have attended had to settle for a full pig roast with all the fixin's. They're the ones who own the whole lake (second clearest in the state) and have canoes, kayaks, and sailboats. Sometimes what one doesn't know doesn't hurt them, sometimes it does. The reason we go to so many different camps is because the boys spend all winter researching all the camps in the area....and beyond!

I haven't had much experience with SPL's, but your SPL's seem to be far more "involved" than need to be. If the PL's are running their patrols, what is the SPL up to? Coordinating communication from the SPL meeting is about all I see his role in summer camp being. The reason I haven't had much experience with SPL's is because when the PL's are doing their jobs, one really doesn't need them until the troop gets up to 4-5 patrols. Then the extra hand helping with coordinating things is useful. If everyone in the patrols are doing their job, the PL has a handle on everything, the SPL like the SM pretty much have more free time than they want. Seriously! Let the PL's do their job, it's the basis of the patrol method! An SPL running around hovering over them is no different than an adult doing it. Either way it undermines the patrol method.

It is good for Zuzy's son to move on down the road to a new unit. The damage done by this SM is going to hang around for years to come. How much dollars to donuts do you think the bet needs to be to make sure the SM's son is the new SPL? A couple of crumbs and a penny? Probably.....

@@David CO It's been my experience that splitting a troop in a situation like that doesn't bode well for either troop. First of all Scouts can go to whatever troop they want. With that being said, the pastor may be right that there isn't enough interest in those 29 scouts to break off a group and/or the neighborhood is so saturated there are no others who would be interested. I started a new unit in a church and all the boys that were members of the church stayed with their original units. It's not an issue of denomination loyalty or even parish loyalty, it's the issue of sticking with buddies in a program they are comfortable with. Your pastor is probably correct in this situation.

Why would the SM be upset if the boys all got together for fun when the regular meeting is cancelled? It's like saying the regular meeting is cancelled and so all the boys went outside and played baseball. Only a SM with control issues want to dictate their will beyond the parameters of the program.

I can't see a spin off occurring unless people are unhappy with the current program. That's a whole lot of work to leave a program that they happen to like? Just doesn't make sense. No one really wants to work that hard at recreating the wheel.

With all the Cub camp activity going on by the time the boys get to boy scouts, they are pretty burned out on the council camp. I haven't taken the boys to council camp as Boy Scouts for a little over 10 years. This year's cross-overs selected a non-council camp for their first camp. I didn't participate in the decision in that I haven't been to this year's camp for about 15 years now.

By state law, any abandoned cemeteries that are reclaimed and cleaned up become the maintenance responsibility of the county in which they are located. I had a boy going to clean up an abandoned cemetery and went to the county board for permission and to be the Eagle project beneficiary. Wasn't going to cost them a penny to clean it up. They said "Sure!" then when the boy went out to the cemetery 2 weeks later to begin a preliminary evaluation as to what needed to be done, the cemetery had been reclaimed by the county. I don't know what their problem was, but it was pretty much a politically motivated agenda operating somewhere along the line. Fortunately it was in the early stages of development so the boy just picked another project. By the way, reclaiming abandoned cemeteries can be a major problem for some counties. A gentleman and I were reclaiming a county Potters Field and found the county had sold off half the cemetery for land development and some poor sap had about 100 graves in his back yard. The other part of the abandoned cemetery had a paved road over 16 other graves located there. I've often wondered if that cemetery the boy wanted to fix up might have exposed some shenanigans along the way, too.

If one were running a BSA program why would they want to form their own unit. It is always far easier to go with what's there than strike out on one's own unless, of course, going is far more productive than staying Always difficult to start a unit, but worth it if one is getting away from a poorly run program.

The boys research the area camps and decide where they want to go. Any BSA Camp is on the list of those able to be attended. Adults aren't involved in the process.

This sounds like a totally dysfunctional troop. I'm a bit squirrely when it comes to leader selection but we do hold COH's at least 5 times a year for those advancing. One right after summer camp and the 5th meeting night of the month. (S)elections are held whenever the boys want them. If a boy isn't doing his job, they can select someone else to fill those shoes without having to wait some predetermined election cycle. Anyone can call for a vote of confidence on anyone at any time. It always seems to turn out and if it doesn't they have no one to blame but themselves with this set-up. This type of thing reminds me of one of our local Cub packs that has 1 Pack meeting and 1 Pack activity per month..... period. No den meetings and if a parent wants their boy to get awards they have to do it at home. Some serious crayola ( ) goes one when one doesn't have trained leadership.