Stosh

On an open forum, who determines when enough is enough?

So instead, BSA adds on the Lion program to increase membership, uniform sale revenue, and literature sales..... ? This is how they hope to turn around the decline in membership? "I can't afford the dues for an organization that's going to try to compete with the Federal, State and Local governments for creating outdoor literature and spaces (can't really afford the taxes either!). Nor can I afford the dues for an organization that's going to build retail space and logistics to compete against Walmart." I can't, I can't, I can't, but what one can do is create opportunities that no one else out there provides. Instead of putting all of one's eggs in some Lion program basket as the solution to their problems, why not notch up the existing program to the next level? No, they have not notched it up, they have rolled it back. What scouts did 50 years ago or 100 years ago is no longer allowed. They have become litigiously cautious to the point they are afraid of their own shadows. They don't set the pace, they only follow the demands of others to conform. They are PC so as to not offend. They promise adventure and never deliver. The list of negatives continues ad nauseum. So what CAN BSA do to improve what it is already doing instead of adding more and more questionable programs onto a once successful organization? 1970 - lets take the Explorer program out of the woods, make it co-ed and move it into the hospitals, the law offices, the fire departments, law enforcement agencies and turn it into a career opportunity instead of a new and improved outdoor program that used to be successful. 1998, let's take that now failed career program, turn it into Learning for Life and re-do the old Explorer program that everyone used to really like. We'll do a hyped up Madison Avenue approach and hope for the best. Well, how's that working out. But we can shore up the Cub program by adding Tigers. That worked so well, we'll add Lions..... and the experimentation goes on and on, but NONE SEEM TO BE CENTERED AROUND THE CAMPFIRE IN THE WOODS! Is the problem the youth have abandoned the program or has the program abandoned the boys?

Welcome to the forum. As I have mentioned, working with the Webelos boys for my WB ticket was a memorable time for me. I got to go back this spring and work with the AOL boys that are now in my troop. That age group is fantastic to work with! Relax and Enjoy!

That's because adults focus on getting the task done and the chaos out of the way. I have found over the years that much of the "discipline" problems facing units is the mandated rules of the adults to minimize chaos at the expense of the the boy's opportunity to lead and have ownership in their program. The Rule: "Thou shalt not have chaos." was never a part of any boy led unit, only those run by adults. These are young men, trying out their leadership styles (as @@Tampa Turtle says) and they need to be supported in that process, not shoe-horned into some management regimen that will produce some sort of a smooth operation of tasks. People are always more important than the tasks when it comes to leadership because it is the people who are being lead. No amount of by-law, policy statements, traditions, listed expectations etc. is going to develop a creating, dynamic leader the boys love to hang with or the sensitive scout that doesn't say much, but when one is bummed out about something at home, he's the one that the boys will always go to.

No, he does not need to say all prayers need to be Christian. A Scout is Reverent which means he is sensitive and understanding that others believe differently than he does and if he is going to be chaplain to all, he needs to be sensitive, to the prayer concerns of others, not just himself. As a spiritual leader he needs to be taking care of his boys. It may be only one sentence, but it states clearly that he is not in a position at this point to do that. His needs are more important than those who he will be serving.

"In Charge" implies a management issue. Leading a troop and leading people are two different animals that often get confused as the same thing when in fact they are not. I have seen many times where PL's TG's DC's show more leadership than SPL's, and even authoritarian SM's. Out of all the Eagle speeches at ECOH's I have heard over the course of the past 35+ years, only one Eagle ever thanked his fellow scouts for making it possible for him to lead. We hear the thanks go to parents, SM's, ASM's, some particular mentor, or whatever, but never for the faithful followers that would do anything and everything to have participated in helping this boy be a Real Eagle. DC's are not "in charge of" anything, but a good DC will lead his den in the cross-over into scouts. TG's are not "in charge of" anything, but the new boys hang on their every word. PL's are not "in charge of" anything, but when one of their patrol members is a bit bummed out about not being at home, will sit by the fire until the boy quiets down and heads for bed. GrubMasters are not "in charge of" anything, don't even get POR credit, but spend a lot of extra time coming up with nice things to eat, learns new recipes, holds out the mushrooms for one boy who doesn't like them, watches labels for peanut oils, and does the shopping, teaching others how to put together menus for advancement, and a whole host of other duties. I am super glad my boys never learn how to be "in charge of" anything. They are too busy learning how to be great leaders.

The key to the whole patrol thingy is trusting the scouts and this is the sticking point for adults. Trusting boys amidst the chaos is something many can't handle. Enforcing management over enabling leadership is an adult solution and it takes far more energy than letting the boys take ownership of the program on their own.

And this is why BSA cannot sustain the program simply by sitting back on it's laurels thinking that some vestige of past glories is going to maintain itself in the world of today. Churches, schools, community organizations are filled with 100+ years of these people with extensive outdoor skills that they no longer need BSA to make those activities available to their children. Who puts out the best literature on wild plants and animals? It's not the BSA, it's the DNR. Who puts out the most variety when it comes to camping opportunities? It's not the BSA, it's the National, State and County Parks. Need outdoor equipment? is it going to be the Scout Shop or maybe someplace like REI, Gander Mountain, Cabelas, or even Walmart? How many olive drab Levi cargo pants are being worn by "full uniform" Boy Scouts today? Beads and shiny objects aren't going to be purchasing Manhattan today. BSA has an opportunity to redefine itself and it has chosen such things as Co-ed Exploring, Learning for Life and STEM. to shore up it's BSA program. Expansion of Cub Scouts by two years to increase membership with little or no forethought other than numbers isn't going to be the long-term solution.

As a Christian pastor, I would not have this boy be the Chaplain Aide. The leadership position requires a major emphasis on servant leadership, compassion and sensitivity. This boy indicates a lack of all three.

And how many units have chaplains?

Exactly!

For this reason the two units should not be connected in anyway. Both need to be independent of each other. I ran a Crew for 12-13 years and never signed off on a Boy Scout advancement issue. Every boy that came into the Crew was told if he wanted to get Eagle he will need to maintain dual membership with a troop and Eagle through them. Did they follow that process? All but one Boy Scout that joined our Crew Eagled. He quit both Scouting and the Crew at the same time. That was as close as we ever got to "mixing" the two units. They NEVER had a joint activity.

"Lean" business practice has come out with the notion that the customer is the most important factor for determining management operations. In this case it would be the individual scouts who are the paying customers. That would mean that the point of first contact would be the guy on the assembly line or the clerk in the store, or the cashier taking the order that would need to be at the top of their game and the top of the organizational functioning structure. If the customer isn't satisfied with the product or service ordered, they will go elsewhere. (Business 101) So we train the contact employee, we make sure they satisfy the customer so they will come back and purchase more goods and services. With Lean, the point of initial contact would be the PL. He is the closest contact with the customer. What is being done to make sure he's trained and qualified to handle this most critical point in the business model of management? So then who's going to do backup for the PL's to make sure they are supported and helped in this critical position? SPL who is NOT in contact with the customer? If he is, then what's the purpose of the PL other than the errand boy for the SPL? Is this how we have the BSA business model set up or is everything from Irving on down driving a program that may or may not be what the customer wants. One would think with the exodus of customers, that policy may not be the best. Irving designs and is keeper of the "program". They pass it down to their sales personnel (councils) to sell to the public. The adults pick up and are trained to handle a outdoor program designed for youth. They enlist the youth to be token "leaders" so they learn a few management skills along the way. The program management mantle gets pass to the SPL who either runs everything himself or mandates to the PL to make sure everyone is happy and doesn't quit. In theory it works great. The only leaders in this scenario are those folks in Irving, everyone else just follows along. If one is the customer here, the end product of what is being offered has passed through so many different hands, no one really knows if the customer is getting what was promised or not.

If "you tell him he is responsible for....." does that then make the adult the leader and the SPL and PL's mere managers of the activity?

It might be interesting to ask the boy if he even knows what the phrase, "in the Name of Jesus we pray." really means. I'm almost certain he doesn't.

But there are those, (including BSA material) that state the SPL is in charge of the Troop, not just the PL's.....

Welcome to the forum! Great question. First of all I don't know the set-up you have in your unit, but CA's in my unit just volunteer for the position. They don't "run" for it like they would an office. But if your setup is part of an election, the boy needs to have everyone who's voting be aware of this matter and let them decide whether or not they want him as CA. You as an adult leader then don't get caught up in the middle of it and if everything goes south, you're not implicated. Maybe the boys don't really care one way or the other. If the boy wishes to tone it down to a more universal prayer, in order to get elected, then he has that choice as well. If he can't he just may take himself out of the running and that's okay too.

The kicker on this whole issue is that when the church group went rock climbing, (yes, on open cliff face) the leaders were all well versed in rock climbing. I was along because of my scouting and emergency rescue training. The adult leader promoting it was an Eagle Scout and he and his family climbed a lot. The kids in the group were well versed in climbing as well in that they had training in school. These people were as well versed and qualified as any BSA Climb on Safely trained group of Scouts. So tell me again why these people sould become a Venturing Crew when they are doing everything a Venturing Crew is already doing and they don't need to register, take training but they don't get any cool patches.

@@TAHAWK's comment got me thinking on this. Just exactly what does being "in charge" really mean in terms of leadership. Some dictionaries say: in control or with overall responsibility. "he was in charge of civil aviation matters" synonyms: responsible for, in control of, in command of, at the helm/wheel of; managing, running, administering, directing, supervising, overseeing, controlling "I'm in charge of museum security or: To be in charge - synonyms or related words bureaucratisea British spelling of bureaucratize bureaucratizeverbto run a state or an organization in a way that relies heavily on bureaucratic processes micromanageverbshowing disapproval to control every part of a business or system in a way that is not necessary or useful controlverbto have the power to make decisions and decide what will happen to something governverbto control and manage an area, city, or country and its people watch overto guard, protect, or be in charge of someone or something commandverbto be the leader of a group of people, especially in the military superviseverbto be in charge of a person or group of people and to check that they are behaving or working correctly look afterto be responsible for something manageverbto organize and control the work of a company, organization, or group of people If this be the case, what's left for the Patrol Leaders when it comes to leadership? This being in charge really becomes obvious when one is discussing management of a task, but leadership is leading people. So where does that leave leadership in the Patrol Method?

Like David CO's non-BSA organization, my church does more in their outdoor program than allowed by the BSA. The ease at which these events can be organized and carried out far outweighs the challenges posed by BSA. TrailLife USA popped up and disappeared in a very short period of time. Too much organization, but my church youth group (coed) has done more outdoor hiking, rock climbing, boating, campfires, etc. than most BSA troops in the area. Just this month the group came over, had kabobs on the campfire, hiked in the back 40 and had a great time. This is a typical event. They didn't go to summer camp, but they did spend a week at a national gathering in New Orleans. This is what the BSA has to now compete with. Do I still teach leadership under these conditions? Yep. We recently had a neighborhood prayer walk as an activity. The adult organizer handed me the map for the mixed group of youth and young adults involved. I took the paper and handed it to a high school sophomore and said, "You be the leader". To everyone's surprise (but me) she did a great job. Could this be a Venturing Crew? Nope, According to church policy this group would never belong to the BSA. It's really interesting to walk both sides of the fence.

If the boy is in control of his EBOR the odds of getting ambush questions diminishes. Ever have a candidate read the passages in the Scout Handbook to the panel members to show where they were wrong in their assumptions? I have. That tone of confidence in the first 2-3 minutes of the EBOR set the tone for the rest of the review. I have also seen where the one-two word answers by the boy has initiated a conversation by the panel on whether or not the boy really wanted to be in scouting at all if he isn't anymore excited about it than one or two words answers. Ambush question? No, but one that got the boy justifiably squirming in his seat. It works both ways and the choice is always in the hands of the boys to control.

Ever wonder where the 2 week summer vacation comes from? That's how long summer is up here.

http://dnr.wi.gov/wnrmag/html/stories/2002/aug02/chest.htm http://www.acf.org/newsletter12.17.12West_Salem.php http://bioweb.uwlax.edu/bio203/s2009/dorman%5Fstep/Geography.htm

No, that's when the wheels of the troop trailer are frozen into the ground and when one hooks up to tow it someplace, all four wheels on your 4-wheel drive pickup spin their wheels on the ice. Then one starts cursing because they have to go back out and unhook everything with numb fingers in order to reclaim the truck to go home.

Lot of good insights given on this issue. Just a couple more from my POV. The SPL does not need to be a prior PL himself. In my troop the PL is the highest ranking officer. Patrol method is systematically followed. PLC is non-existant (we are too small for a PLC/SPL setup). But there was a time when my former troop increased to 5 patrols and an SPL/PLC became somewhat of a necessity. None of the PL's wanted to give up their top spots in the patrol method setup so they tried to figure out who's the best candidate. To the chagrin of one of the PL's his APL was selected. The boy was top notch in making his PL look good and worked with him to make sure things in the patrol went smoothly. He had never served at a PL, he was only 2nd class, but he really knew his stuff about helping the PL be successful. According to about 95% of the adult rules imposed on the SPL position this kid was no where near in the running. The PL's picked him anyway and he turned out to be really qualified (servant leader) SPL. He didn't lead the PLC, he refereed the other PL's and worked hard at working with the SM to make sure the patrols got what they wanted/needed for their members. I personally would never have chosen him for the first SPL the troop had had in the past 5 years, but as it turned out I'm glad I wasn't making the decision. So, did he come prepared to run any meeting each week? No, that's the PL's job. What did he do 90% of the time? Listened to what the PL's needed and then would work with the adults to make it happen. He championed the PL's to get to do the things they wanted to so. The other 5% of the time he called the opening and closing flag ceremonies, Emcee'd the COH's and signed off advancement for the PL's. Was he busy? Not really. He wasn't wasting his time with a bunch of paperwork, meeting agendas, and a whole lot of other useless busy work.