jark

They have tried to get a response from the DAC. It looks like he was the one that was partially at least holding things up. The other reason I'm trying to follow this along is that I'm planning on taking over for the DAC this summer so I want to understand how we got to this point in case this kind of thing happens under my watch. She's trying to get ahold of the DE now to see what he knows about all this. The family is not new to the general process. His older brother is an Eagle, but his application didn't get all messed up like this. She didn't know any better than to wait for the DAC to call the BOR since that was what happened before. They received no counsel from the unit or the district on how to proceed with this set of issues, so hey just waited and called every so often to see that was to happen. The DAC never mentioned any appeals being necessary.

From the 2008 printing of the ACP&P I see under Item 4 on page 31. "The application should be signed by the unit leader at the proper place. The unit committee reviews and approves the record of the Eagle candidate before the application is submitted to the local council. If aunit leader or unit committee fails to sign or otherwise approve an application, the Eagle candidate may still be granted a board of review. The failure of a unit leader or unit committee to sign an application may be considered by the board of review in determining the qualification of the Eagle candidate." Based on this it would seem reasonable to send the application on to council for processing by the to be convened BOR. The troop is extremely small and he was doing this right before he turned 18, so trying to get the troop committee to rule on this would have most likely been in-effectual. The council didn't loose the paperwork and it is still in process. I'm just trying to figure out what this meeting would be about. The mom has a call into the DE to try and figure out what is going on. The district person appears to have sat on this application for all this time, since I had asked him about it before the year (2008) ended.

Hello all, When a scout from another troop approached his SM about signing his Eagle application, the SM refused citing some issues with attendance at meetings and general participation in troop activities (I believe). (He was not told of these issues while he was finishing up his requirements, including his project and just suprised by it all when the SM refused to sign the application.) The CC also would not sign it so as not to counter the SM since he (the CC) still had a son in the troop. The family asked my advice on what to do with the application and I advised them to just send it on to council without the signatures. This was back in October. Since then they have tried to contact the District Advancement Chair to schedule his BOR. This kept getting put off and now he has been told to go to some meeting (in another district) where they would discuss his application. This is not his BOR. Also, now, due to the length of time since his application he is faced with having to appeal anything that needs to happen since he is passed the 180 time limit for local processing. My basic question is, what is the proper process to follow when you have an Eagle application without signatures? My understanding was that it should be sent to council and then a BOR would be called and they would rule on the application as it stood. Thanks for any help/advice on this.

At the committee meeting where the issue was brought up, only the 'normal' committee members were present. Most of the past summer camp adult leaders were at that meeting. We did not survey the entire adult population of the troop for addtional adults since we had two registered adult leaders who were available and willing to attend. The question was, simply, are there any BSA restrictions (not local customs) that forbid the two adults on a campout from being as husband and wife pair. The answer to the original quesiton is NO. It is OK for the two adults to be a husband and wife team. This has been confirmed with our council executive. As it turns out, we will have a third adult (the ASM of the troop) along with the husband and wife team this year. The parent bringing up the original question, did not volunteer to go on this trip and that was probably due to their involvement in other scouting activities the same week. And there are some other adults who will pop out to camp for a day or night during the week, but we were trying to get the main adult leadership covered and just had to resolve this technicality. I hope that this explanation satisfies Marge's request.

One member of the husband/wife team was at the committee meeting. The scout executive was asked a simple question regarding policy of a husband and wife being the only two leaders and responded accordingly. The complaining parent spoke quite candidly. Again, the original question is simply - is there a BSA policy that forbids a husband and wife team from being the only leaders at a BSA summer camp. Answer: No.

Good point. The only thing that seems to make sense out of all this is perhaps a restriction that parent two-deep is fine for events like summer camp and would not be allowed for events like a backpacking trip or high adventure trips due to issues like one of their children having an emergency or such. But, you can't go wrong with just following the BSA rules and getting them clarified as needed when someone challenges a situation - which is what happened here.

As it turns out we now have the following information available. Our CC contacted our council executive and has the following rules clarification via e-mail: 1. The husband and wife team DOES constitute the requirements for two-deep leadership. 2. A 'family' may camp at BSA summer camp as long as ALL of the members of the family are registered members of the BSA. The complaining parent will be informed of the response from the scout executive for them to process as they see fit. The troop committee will probably discuss this issue in more depth over the next few months and decide if a troop policy covering this situation is warranted; i.e., when would troop not want a parental team being the only adult leaders, etc. One additional adult stepped up to come out for the week, so in this case the problem has been mitigated. Other parents do come out for a day or evening at a time, but we generally try to cover the whole week with the same leaders if possible. For this particular family going to camp this year it was the only time that this would happen. The old son is 17 and it will be his last year as a scout member, next year he would in the adult category. The youngest scout will be out for his first year. So the parents thought that it would be a reasonable way to spend some time with their kids and the rest of the troop since the committed leadership was not available when they volunteered. Thanks for all your responses and opinions!

The only sections of the Guide to Safe Scouting that deal with family camping are: Section III Family Camping Family camping: an outdoor camping experience, other than resident camping, that involves Cub Scouting, Boy Scouting, or Venturing program elements in overnight settings with two or more family members, including at least one BSA member of that family. Parents are responsible for the supervision of their children, and Youth Protection guidelines apply. Recreational family camping: when Scouting families camp as a family unit outside of an organized program. It is a nonstructured camping experience, but is conducted within a Scouting framework on local council-owned or -managed property. Local councils may have family camping grounds available for rental at reasonable rates. Other resources may include equipment, information, and training. I believe that these were the sections quoted and the point being made was that by having a family attend the summer camp that it was transforming the summer camp experience into a family camp. My reading of the above also indicates that the presence of more than one family member with at least one being a BSA member constitutes the 'family camp' part and so that any parents coming out with at least one scout would constitute a 'family camp'. Our troop's situation is a bit more involved in that the husband/wife team and the attending scouts constitute the entire family. Not sure that the distinction makes any difference, except to this person making the complaint. Regarding the event of an emergency, one parent would have to deal with the emergency and the other stay with the unit as would happen with normal two-deep leadership. Since this is a summer camp situation, the problem may also be mitigated by being able to call on an additional non-unit leader to help until the emergency was resolved. The complaint registered did not bring up any of the issues that have been discussed here about YP, but the main issue was turning summer camp into family camp. That is what prompted my posting this to see what the real rules were and to understand if this kind of situation was expressly forbidden. The issues raised here make it clear that it is hardly the ideal situation and should be avoided if at all possible. Also, if this were not part of the organized council summer camp, but a separate troop excursion, the stakes would certainly be higher and a better arrangement should be made.

The main point of the parent complaining about the arrangement appeared to be centered on the fact that since this husband/wife team and their boys were going out that this somehow turned the summer camp experience into a family camp for the rest of the troop that would be out there. YPL issues were not the centerpoint of the discussion, mostly this family camp aspect of the outing.

The couple is heterosexual, married to each other and active church members.

Does anyone know of any BSA policy, preferably National in nature, that would prohibit a married couple as being the only two adult leaders at a Boy Scout summer camp? Due to leadership availability these were the only two adults (both registered leaders) that are available for the entire week. One parent/committee member presented some information from the Guide to Safe Scouting that seemed to indicate that this was not allowed, but in reviewing the Guide, I cannot find the same indications. Thanks for any hard facts that would support this position one way or the other.

Thanks to those who replied with your suggestions on how to determine this troop number. As it turns out, they were able to find out that it was Troop 113 and they were able to register in their council with that number. So there is now a new troop at Howe Military School! They will be having their first campout soon.

Does anyone remember the troop number from a unit that we believe used to be chartered at Howe Military School in Howe, IN? They are starting a new troop there and would like to use the old troop number if we can find out what it was. This troop will be in the Anthony Wayne Council. There is already a troop in the Howe city area, but this troop would have been part of the school itself. If anyone knows any information about any troop at Howe Military School, it will be greatly appreciated!

ghostdancer, This is the kind of information I was looking for! Thank you. We are still trying to get to the bottom of exactly how it was decided that our family should be told to leave! We have involved the Unit Commissioner and he is looking into it but hasn't gotten back to us. The CR is also in the loop and all she knew was that there might have been a meeting between the CC and the Unit Commissioner where this was decided, but the Unit Commissioner didn't say anything about this when I talked to him. So on it goes....

I see we have gone quite off the beaten path here, but a lot of good discussion is happening. To clarify some of the facts I was dealing from was 1. The jackhammer exclusion came directly from the person at our council office that approves the tour permits as restricted to 18 and over. Period. If the leaders running at this Eagle project had checked this out beforehand they would have known better. They didn't and so by the rules of our council they put the boys in danger. 2. The uniform issue was brought up by us in a parent committee meeting, not a troop meeting so we thought it the correct forum for the discussion. Again, our point was that they were allowing the boys to make up a policy that would have allowed more than just full uniforms and troop shirts for events. They would have been able to wear rock groups and other labelled items to troop events. The previous uniform policy we had in effect was simple and appropriate. Why we even needed it to be addressed suprised us also. As stated earlier, I was trying to find out how one properly asks a family to leave a unit. We were ordered from our unit with no meeting of the parties having an issue with us. The CR was not aware that this action was happening. And our boys were ordered to leave, even though the problem appeared to be at the adult level. If anyone has more comments along these lines it would be great to hear them! Thanks.