imascouter

Even though I eventually found the information myself, I didn't know that I would, but I knew I could depend on you guys to come through. Thanks again for helping.

SCTMOM, thanks for the quick post. I had just returned here myself to say "never mind" as I found this link; http://www.usscouts.org/advance/cubscout/sports/fitness.html with full details. Wish I had found this a month ago. Crossover to Scouts is March first for us, so I will see if the boy wants to get to work. Thanks again.

By the way, if someone could post the beltloop requirements it would be helpful. (or point to a web page with them) Just incase

I need the help of this forum to understand a situation as soon as possible. I know you are up to it. If I had the Cub Scout Academics and Sports Program Guide I could probably answer this one myself. I turned in a list of items my son earned to the advancement coordinator. She emailed me back questioning one of them. I told her that son had earned the Webelos Athlete badge and consequently the Cub Scouts Sports pin for physical fitness, as earning this pin is requirement number 2 on as shown on page 63. We reviewed the information about the pin on page 46 of the book, then went to the store and transcribed the requirements of the pin on paper, then went home and did them. Seemed find and dandy until this morning. The advancement coordinator informed me that in order to earn a pin, one must first earn a beltloop. This generally sounds correct too bad they couldnt have mentioned this in the Webelos book. My question. Because requirement number two for the Athlete badge says you must EARN the pin (as opposed to just saying you must do the requirements for the pin, in which case you could complete the badge requirements without being awarded the pin) does this mean we now must go back and earn the beltloop? OR, is there an obscure exception printed somewhere that says this is the only pin that does not require a beltloop to be earned first? OR, are the requirements for the beltloop met while earning the pin because the pin work is so much more detailed? Yes, we are looking for a beltloop-hole. I will appreciate your help on this matter. I am trying to resolve this prior to the cut off for awards this month.

SLONTWOVVY: I feel your pain! In a past Cub Scout pack there were four families (mine being one of them) that did everything for the other 40 families. We planned it, brought the equipment, set it up, directed it, cleaned it up. We would ask for help and get none. On campouts parents would drive up Sunday morning, Junior would hop in the car and away they went; we cleaned out his tent, and packed it. After three years we had enough and went to a new pack where 10 families did the work for 60. My point: Seems that the majority of families in any organization are inconsiderate and/or lazy. It should be no surprise that your Johnny has leaned this behavior. In fact, count yourself fortunate that there is only one! Now, I have been trying to educate myself about the ways of BOY SCOUTS so that when we get there in the next 45 days we won't be one of those problem Webelos families that expects everything to be the same as CUBS. With that (PATROL METHOD) in mind, I think the question should be; what do the other boys in his patrol think about this? MAYBE if they feel it is ok for one of their own to leave early then it is OK. (Even though it is eating you alive inside, just like it would me!) It is not our (parents) problem. If it is a problem, it is the boys problem. Now if you want to be a meddling parent... (and I know that I want you too) I would wait for the moment (that will surely come) when two of the boys in his patrol are grumbling about packing up the patrol, THEN SUGGEST, "sure would have been easier if Johnny was here to do his part, huh?" My understanding is that our new job is to inspire discussions that lead them to find their own solutions to challenges. Not to tell them what to do, and not to do it for them. Hope this is helpful. NJCubScouter: I too am guilty of assuming that the original poster did not tell the whole story. I recently jumped to the wrong conclusion and felt bad about that. However, people do this because people do SOMETIMES spark a discussion without giving the full details only to later say, "oh yeah, did I mention..." Both problems of human nature I suppose. (My pet peeve is starting a thread with a title that does not say what the thread is about. But as you have said we are getting off topic for this thread.) (This message has been edited by imascouter)

My understanding is that a merit badge card or rank card signed by the appropriate people is full and valid proof of having earned the award to anyone inquiring, including units you transfer to, districts, councils, and national. This is why I have always stressed keeping these cards safely. (Use photocopies in your eagle notebook.) Is this not correct?

For those of you able to learn from others experiences... This serves as a reminder, keep those little cards that merit and rank badges are attached to in a safe place.

The Boy Scouts of America Natinal Office 1329 W. Walnut Hill Lane Irving, TX 75038 972-580-2597 My impression is that record keeping is notoriously bad from the top to the bottom. You might be just as well off to track down your old Scoutmaster. Good Luck

OK, I cant resist putting in my $ .02 on this. Regarding the jet skis, snowboarding, dirt bikes, etc., I suspect that few of the boys who question this actually have the equipment or participate in these activities anyway. Sounds like the grass is greener syndrome to me. Now, what we do offer: Hiking, Backpacking, Camping, Swimming, canoeing, rafting, Summer camp, high-adventure bases, Rifles, shotguns, archery ranges, Pioneering, cope courses, Major event campouts, Jambos, patrol competitions, Some interesting merit badges, And more. Now, seems to me there is plenty of available sizzle that does not cost anymore than the activities that junior suggested. I think the question might be, how often is the sizzle being served? That should answer your sons comment. Now, sizzle on the cheap, well lemme think.

ASM1; why not ask the rest of the question that you alluded to? Is the question regarding boys playing games of any kind that they provide themselves; or is the question about playing morally questionable games. I am aware that some people prefer that boys not play (in the past Dungeons & Dragons) Harry Potter related games due to the sorcery aspect, or more recently the Yu-Gi-Oh! games. I suspect there are those who are very conservative that would reject regular playing cards. Posters here might be more specific in their responses if we knew exactly what the question is. I agree with slontwovvys post regarding Pokman cards, as do most schools and daycare facilities. Highly desireable/high theft items should be left at home. I agree with OGE, that if there is excessive free time then more activities should be scheduled. Finally, I played D&D when I was young, and now as an adult I ONLY steal a neighbors cat once in awhile to sacrifice on my backyard alter.

EAGLEDAD, thanks for your input on this topic. I appreciate the angle you take on this, and believe you are quite correct. You state, "(we) should ask, "what values will the boy gain from wearing the full uniform and how can I teach him those values". (excellent I think) Further you state, "I suggest before we discuss how to encourage boys to wear full uniforms, we first discuss why that is so important." (yes!) Finally you also state, "Uniform is one of eight methods the scouts use to develop character and integrity." (A statement that means little to the boys I suspect.) OK, I am with you completely. So convince me (a youth) why, why should I wear the entire uniform? What's in it for me? Why should it be important for me? None of the other boys wear it, and besides I heard that some think it looks very sissy!

SCOUTLDR's example only brought it to my mind again. I am speaking of all scouts (Wolf, Webelos, Tenderfoot, Eagle, etc.) I think most Scouts will follow the norm. If no Scout wears uniform pants then another Scout will not want to wear his. Yes, I think it starts with Leaders, first by example, then by expectation for the boys. The problem is when it has been done one way for so long. (Kind of like you hear leaders saying, "We're going to try the 'patrol method,' but it will be difficult because it has never been done that way in the past.")

In another thread SCOUTLDR said, . . . we have a bigger challenge. The uniforming of the youth, supposedly our "cream of the crop", was atrocious. One particular example...a 17 year old Eagle Scout Vigil who looked like he was coming off a week-long bender. The day was 40 degrees with a stiff wind. ALL he was wearing was a wrinkled Venture shirt, a pair of blue jeans shorts, and flip-flops. I frequently share SCOUTLDRs frustration and disappointment. My question is HOW DO WE ENCOURAGE BOYS TO WEAR THE FULL UNIFORM WITH PRIDE? I am speaking of boys who own the entire uniform I want to avoid a common discussion that occurs here about how boys dont have to wear the entire uniform if they cant afford it. Also, lets pretend it is a more perfect world and that uniforms are not over-priced. We could easily say, get National to lower prices on uniforms and more people can wear them but that is not going to happen. First, I believe it starts from the top down. Council and District leaders have to wear the complete uniform (all the time) and expect other leaders to wear the uniform. Then the leaders have to wear the entire uniform all the time and encourage families to be in uniform. Finally, I think it may be difficult in areas where blue jeans have been the normal uniform pants for so long. In my new pack, the uniform shirt only appears to be full uniform. I rarely see official hats, belts, pants, or socks. MY REAL QUESTION IS THIS: Do any of you have internet links to share that offer leader guides or discussions about improving uniforming in an organization? What has worked in your area to improve full uniforming. Yes, I believe it is important to wear the entire uniform. It is an important public relations tool. It is how the public finds out that Scouting is still around. It is how the public sees that Scouts are still doing good turns. The public WANTS to see those cute Cub Scouts in the entire blue uniform. The WANT to see a Rockwell-like representation of a boy scout in our current youth. Every time the public sees a scout in a wrinkled shirt, jean shorts, and flip-flops, they capture a poor image of Scouting.

SCOUTLDR: I sympathize with your frustration over scouts who have little desire to wear the full uniform (when they own it), and to do so with pride. It is however off-topic for this thread, but worthy of discussion. I am going to start a new thread called "HOW TO GET BOYS TO WEAR THE FULL UNIFORM WITH PRIDE." I hope we will have your input there along with other leaders!

TCD: Thanks for the Insignia Guide quote. I think I may have that embrodieried on a patch and place it in the temporary patch position! As for the rest of the banter; I did ACTUALLY laugh out loud. Thanks for the chuckle!

Our district has a name patch that is being worn (by adult leaders only) below the flag on right sleeve. Of course the inspection sheet mentions nothing about this patch or its placement. I have never seen any other district with such a patch. Is this a "legal" patch for wear? If not, how might I prove that? Is there a quote in the insignia guide that says, "no patches allowed anywhere, other than temporary ones on right pocket, unless so noted in this guide."?

Just above the first post is an underlined link in small green print that says "monitor this thread by email." By clicking that you can do the same thing without creating a post.

Ghosthost: Hope this is not too late. A good starting place would be the "Staging Den & Pack Ceremonies" book available at your local scout shop or by mail order by calling 1-800-323-0732. You can view all the literature available online at http://www.scoutstuff.org/ For more online ideas visit http://www.macscouter.com/Ceremony/index.html or, http://www.scouter.com/compass/Meeting_Activities/Ceremonies/ or, visit a search engine (www.altavista.com) and type "den ceremonies" in the search window. Hope this helps.

Oh, Bob is back! Bob, tell us, where have you been? Holiday, hospital, or just taking a break from the Internet? Welcome back.

Benny: Yaworski is correct, retire the flag with dignity, preferably by fire, and the rest is pomp no matter what anyone else tells you. Pretty good article on this at http://members.aol.com/StanDCmr/flagret.html, titled "Flag Retirement Ceremonies, Which is Really the Correct Way?" Do note that a flag retired by fire is permanent, as opposed to a burial for instance. Regarding grommets, it has been suggested that the flag be retired by fire until it is no longer recognizable as a former flag. The grommets in a fire pit is the only recognizable portion, thus, most people remove them. I prefer to remove the grommets and put one each on a pre-prepared thong with red, white and blue beads and present them as a temporary recognition to someone who was a big help during the event when the retirement was conducted. In many circles this is a high honor. Also consider stopping by Walgreens and picking up their left over film canisters (no charge) for those who collect ashes from flag retirements. You may want to ask before your flag is retired if any in the audience have ashes from previous ceremonies to add to the fire. For ideas for flag retirement ceremonies, visit any Internet search engine (www.altavista.com) and type flag retirement (with the quote marks) in the search phrase window. Good luck with your ceremony.

I hope someone can provide you an excellent recommendation. I don't have a specific trail recommendation for you but do suggest this if needed. You could contact the State Conservation department or State Parks Department of each state and ask for a listing of trails. Chances are good that these states already provide this information on line. All state parks: http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/admin/hot/stdepts.htm

I also like EagleDads suggestion about making this a TROOP event! That way the boys who are retiring from Scouting dont feel like they have been left out of a PACK event. Having this as a separate event (not part of the Blue and Gold dinner for instance) would help a lot.

Ok, I cant resist putting in my two cents on this topic. First, the highest award you can receive as a CUB SCOUT is the Arrow of Light. That being said, if you do not choose to join a BOY SCOUT troop, then you have reached the pinnacle. SOME districts or councils have an additional award sometimes called the 20 Patch, or Super Webelos, or Super Achiever. This is awarded to boys who earn all 20 Webelos pins. I agree with many other posters here that an AOL ceremony should be a separate and substantial ceremony recognizing those scouts who have earned CUB SCOUTINGS highest award. I would also like to point out that there an several areas around the U.S. who have separate DISTRICT events to crossover Webelos to Boy Scouting. This is nice because it allows for some big productions that might otherwise be too costly for a small group. KC SCOUTING DAD: Sorry, but I too will not be able to quote any specific BSA policies regarding this issue. It may benefit your committee to change the title of this event from Webelos Crossover to Boy Scout Induction ceremony. I also agree with the majority here, that this is an event for boys who are JOINING/ CROSSING OVER/ BEING INDUCTED into a Boy Scout troop. I would define joining as; filled out and signed a Boy Scout application AND stroked a check for registration to that troop. I would also ask you to consider this. In most typical crossover events the boy starts with his den leader and/or Cubmaster then during the ceremony he is turned over to (received by) his new SCOUTMASTER. In the case that some have mentioned where some boys might be going to a different troop, then there are that many SCOUTMASTERS there to receive THEIR boys. Seems to me if I were a Scoutmaster that I would only be receiving boys who JOINED my troop. Also keep in mind that many times (most of the time?) the Scoutmaster will be presenting items like epaulets, neckerchiefs, troop numeral patches, and sometimes handbooks. Does anybody really think that the troop is going to pay for these items for a boy who is not going to join their troop, much less a boy who is quitting the program? Just my two cents. Hope you find this helpful. Good luck!

Thank you for your suggestions. I just received these suggestions from a Scouter that I respect: Check to see how effective the Methods are in the troop. 1) Advancement; how are the advancement opportunities in the troop? Are they fun, challenging, and re-enforced in the troop program? 2) Ideals; are the Scout Oath, Law, Motto, Slogan and Outdoor Code are part of every meeting? Can the Scouts repeat from memory and are they demonstrating it in their activities. 3) Patrols; are the patrols Scout lead and Adult advised? Is Junior Leader training part of the annual troop calendar? Does the Patrol Leaders Council meet regularly and use the Senior Patrol Leader and Patrol Leader Handbooks? How involved are the Scouts in the program decision making? 4) Outdoors; does the troop go camping every month? Do they participate in a week-long summer camp experience? What percentage of the Scouts and Adults participate in short-term and long-term camping? Is there a variety of camping locations? Are individual patrols encouraged to camp as patrols? Adult Association; is the adult leadership properly uniformed? Does a large percentage attend the monthly Roundtable? Do the adults guide the Scouts in an Advisory role? Do the adults set a good example? 5) Personal Growth; does the troop schedule service projects as part of its annual calendar plan? Is the Religious Awards program emphasized in the troop program? 6) Leadership Development, is the youth and adult leadership training? Do the youth leadership take part in a week-long Junior Leader Training Conference? Do the adults participate in regular training opportunities? 7) Uniform, are the Scouts and Adult leaders properly uniformed? Do they were it with pride? Some other things to consider are: 1) Does your son feel welcome? Does he feel comfortable enough to make friends at the troop he visits? Do you feel comfortable with the troop adults and are made to feel welcome. 2) Does the troop support the council and district? Does the troop have a good balance between district, council, and troop event participation? 3) Are the advancements handled effectively? Are Scouts recognized as soon as possible after earning advancement? Are Courts of Honor held regularly? 4) How many scouts earn the Eagle rank annually? Do they continue to participate after earning Eagle? 5) Is there an evenly balanced age distribution in the troop? 6) Does the troop support and actively participate in the Order of the Arrow? Troops are like families and have different personalities. They also tend to change from year to year depending on the age groups in the troop, adult participation, and Webelos crossover numbers. .... My last comment is this, whatever troop that your son selecteds must be a place where the opportunities to earn the Eagle rank exist. Scouts enjoy being recognized and without active advancement the scouts will become bored.

We have been in Cub Scouting since tigers. Now that we are finishing up the Webelos 2 year we have just moved to a new state. We are getting very close to the time that we have to select a troop that we will join. When we first got here, we visited three of the troops in the area. We got some first impressions right away based on their reception of us, how many boys in attendance, how many adults in uniform, and what percentage of the troop meeting was boy-lead. I liked the idea that our visits were usually last minute things... so these were not "special" troop meetings for visiting dens of Webelos. We have a favorite troop for the moment and have joined a pack that typically feeds to it. I had a conversation with the new Webelos leader about the troops we visited and it got him to thinking it was time for his den to do some visits. We are now scheduled to visit 2 troops in the next 2 weeks, and at least one more later. Just lately I have been reading some of the message boards here and there was a thread about JLT. The thread dealt with new ways to present the same-old-material. But each of the posters mentioned how often they do JLT, what importance they assign to it, and it got me to thinking.... how much a troop places emphasis in training boys to be leaders - then letting them exercise those lessons in the troop... maybe this is really the "gauge" that would best indicate a "good" troop!? Troops with boys who have been taught excellent leadership skills and use those skills to direct the troop.... probably ALSO have a very good, full, useful, program. What are your thoughts about this? What would be on your short list of things to look for in a perspective troop? I am sure that none of you have time to type up a complete dissertation. Your top four basic things I should watch for would be appreciated.