Illini

quad post (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

I have asked this question several times of Jark with no response " were all leaders, adults and parents approached before the conclusion was made that no other parents were available to attend camp?" Many responding to this discussion have assumed the fact to be true... no adults would attend... Personally I can not and will not judge a person "whiner" or other parents of the troop until this question is left unanswered because the entire forcus could change. Jark why is this such a difficult question to answer?

Just to clarify one last time the situation is real, every conversation I have had (other than one comment from the father) on the subject has been one on one with the boy. The young man is practicing Satanism. He will be at camp. I have not witnessed animal sacrifice and did not discuss this aspect of the religion with the boy so, I cannot comment. I know all children as good and wonderful because they are children and there is hope for their soul (in my religious set of beliefs). As far as my mental health, your 16 year old (who I know nothing about), unless he has extensive knowledge in the field of psychiatry is not really qualified to make a diagnosis. What happened here is, not one of your remembered your training. In situations of this magnitude and sensitivity we, as leaders cannot advise or analyze the situation with the professionalism required. Unless you are a paid professional with extensive training, and I do not know if any of you are, you are not qualified to pass judgment on the boy, the situation, or me. Your best advice: This is a sensitive situation call your Council Executive and he will be able to assess the situation and resolve the situation in the best interests of the Scout, the Troop, and BSA.

This will be my last post on the subject. At no point did I inquire about animal sacrifice. I originally asked is Witchcraft / worship of Satan accepted in BSA because of a situation I must deal with. What I have learned is anything goes as far as religion, who cares who worships what even if it is the devil himself. I guess someone should consider designing a religious emblem for him too! Would you reconsider the reacceptance of those who are homosexual if they made their beliefs a religion? I venture to say no, what a shame. This is a comparison to consider. Maybe all the posts should be read and you will see what a whole has been dug here, it is not one I will jump in.

I agree that many faiths of good and loving deities were left out of the comment and apologize to the many out there that I may have offended. But, you're saying that worshiping Satan is acceptable in the BSA, and to say that I have a belief in the sciences, not a God, as to the explanation of our existence keeps me out? Since when was Satan "The profoundly evil adversary of God and humanity, often identified with the leader of the fallen angels; the Devil." (dictionary.com)a God I guess it is time for us to reconsider the type of organization many of us belong to. One last comment, the BSA will not allow a homosexual who is solid in his/her faith into the organization but will allow those who worship Satan. Baden Powell I am so sorry the wonderful institution you created has come to this.

I never stated that he killed animals for his "services". That was an inference in another post. Eamonn, thank you for relating the story. I am not sure the message you intended but, I will take it that if we set things straight, whatever bad happened in the past will not return and not all thing are as they appear. It appears that there is a very grey area in reguards to this topic. I feel that if he is practicing the dark arts whether just ritualistic confussion or sacrificial offerings (I do not know if this part of his pratice) he has renounced God and therefore should not be part of the scouting program. Meeting the resistance in this discussion to this topic spells it out for me the morals, the very foundation of BSA are no longer improtant what ever happened to "Duty to God"? I use this as a retorical question and thank you all for your valued input.

Thank you both scoutldr and fuzzybear. Scoutldr: As you can see you are the first to recognize the Declaration on this forum and I am the only to question what our children will be exposed to this summer at camp. I can only speculate what may transpire and I would rather be sure there is no chance for such exposure. Unfortuatly lying and deceit are Satan's best companions. I too believe as you "The first thing I notice is that it states "obligation to God"...God with a capital "G". In my opinion, that means the God of the Judeo/Christian/Islamic tradition, aka, Allah, Jahweh, Jehovah, Jesus Christ, Holy Spirit, etc., But many in our organization many chose ignore the foundations of BSA because they are special, there are special circumstances etc. We all sign the statement quoted on the registration form but, I am finding even from the discussions here "if it doesn't apply to me why bother". It is a very frustration situation. Fuzzy, O.k you caught me I know it's a dime but I didn't want to date myself but, I am a pusherover for the latest technology. I know what I should do - stand up for the principles of Scouting but, what those around will chose to hear is that which is best for their situation, the no conflicts route. If we don't acknowledge the issue it only exists in the mind of the person complaining. I guess I just needed to hear one other Scouter stand up for what I believe, a belief in God and the integrity of the foundation of BSA.

My knowledge is not fragmentary, and I do not have a signed statement, if it exists the committee has it, and as to the quarter in the paper is an old expression so, as you will I'll just give him a cell phone with the numbers preprogramed. I can not judge this young man or any other for that matter because I am not worthy of that task but I can question their actions and that is what I attempted here. Is witchcraft in the form of the dark arts, devil worship, conjuring spirits of the underworld sanctioned by BSA. If so where is it's place in within the Scouting program and are there national standards to define the meaning of Reverent and Duty to God.

Our charter organization is a Church but does not have much involvement with the troop the current committee prefers it that way. And yes I feel it is beyond reason that the boys, leaders and parents must sign this procedures and guidelines An example is: Scout Law - Violation Helpful - failure to do share of work. Obedient - not following directions of those in authority, bringing improper items to meetings and activities, vandalism. Cheerful - constant complaining Reverent - disrespect of others religious beliefs The consequensces of violating any of these will be at the discretion of the scoutmaster...but the preceeding is a topic all in itself. If this young man sets up an alter in the woods and others happen by is this behavior OK? And what is considered religion in the eyes of Boy Scouting is there a defining line? I guess that is my question and is this boy following the Law and Oath worshiping Satan? And yes this young man who will be 18 within the year will discuss his religious beliefs with other Scouts should they inquire.

I am sure there is much to this discussion we will never know because the whiner as so named has not had a chance to represent himself here. Was whiner ever asked to attend camp? and what was the response? I doubt we will ever know.

I am familiar with Wicca and by no means is this young man honoring or respecting the earth, nature or what our surrounding provide us. He is practicing the rituals of the dark world, the under Lord, Satan. The ritualistic cutting, dark attire and alters are part of the daily rituals. He truly believes that an improvement in his health is a direct result of his new life. I have spoken with the boy and related the near death of a family member because black witchcraft was attempted before medical attention was sought and my fear for his safety. He knows that I am concerned and care for his well being and that the quater wrapped in paper (my personal phone numbers) is to be use 24/7 and when the quater is gone, collect is next. I am concerned that each boy in our troop must sign a contract based on the oath, law, promise and expanded by the committee members that clearly spells out a reverence to God, trustworthy, loyal, honest etc. Is satan a god? A god that you want your child exposed to? A god that Badan Powell would want our future leaders to be reverant to? Am I a good leader letting this boy sign this contract knowing there are lies and deciet behind his signature as well as his parents because we all must sign?

1 1/2 to 2 years ago the father of a troubled Scout mentioned that his son was having problems with religion and the church. I prayed for his soul and asked that he find his way back to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. This young man is hurting and confused so I revised my prayers to ask that this he find his way back to the good and positive in the world so that he could once again believe. Time passed and the young man received his Eagle and you know what the Board of review never asked him about his belief in a higher power, a higher power of good. He has been practicing Witchcraft - the dark arts all the while, with the belief that improvement in his health is a result of his new religion. I held a conversation with the young man last week asking "Where are you in your struggle with religion I got a see saw motion with his hand and the statement "I look at my stuff all the time and am just not sure." Need some advice because this young man and his family will attend resident camp with several new scouts this summer. The parents will deny the involvement with the dark arts to protect themselves stating that it was just a phase. I am Christian but believe in all good and loving Gods of many religions but the darkness terrifies me. I do not want a "he said, she said" argument but feel I need to protect the boys in the troop including this misguided but wonderful young man.

In reading all of our entries, I realized we are focusing our discussion on the husband\wife issue and is there any substantial evidence, rule, guidelines, etc. that supports a married couple being the only leadership in camp with the boys and the answer gained was NO. There is nothing to support or deny this privilege. Has anyone considered that whiner, as so named, may have had the greater interest of the boys in the troop in mind as opposed to trying to undermine the husband\wife intentions to attend camp with their family?

Whether this question will be answered or not will remain to be seen. This complaining parent must have had valid grounds for a matter of this nature to be brought before the committee. Was the family in question present at the particular meeting? Was the complaining parent allowed to speak candidly to the committee? Again I feel that the entire situation is not being represented here, that it is rather one sided. I understand that the exec. has responded but, does e-mail by a CC allow the exec. to assess the situation from both points of view?

I have a hard time believing that all the other parents, SM, and ASM were unavailable for the trip. I again ask were all the parents, committee members, SM, ASM, and parents asked if they would like the opportunity to camp with the boys before your decision was made. I feel bad that we are blasting this troop when this piece of information in not forth coming. I have also seen instances where there is so much parental involvement qualified people are overlooked because they are unaware of all the slots that need to be filled. I know in our troop there are always parents milling around but they are not included because they do not attend the committee meetings.