ilduncans

So disregarding the troll, and returning to the thread ... did this ever get launched? I still haven't seen requirements published ...

Spun from an older thread on Gold Stars for unit flags, this young man earned his Eagle in 2005 in my district. }- Quoted from Northeast Illinois Council release: I am saddened to inform you of the passing of Joey Dimock in Afghanistan last week. Joey is the son of Joe Dimock, Committee Chairman of Troop 672, and unit commissioner to pack 37. More information on Joey is below: Spc. Joseph Whiting Dimock, II, 21, Eagle Scout with a bronze palm from Troop 672 of Wildwood, Ill., was killed when an explosion occurred in an ammunition holding facility during an inventory. The explosion also injured another Ranger conducting the inspection. Dimock, enlisted in the U.S. Army in August 2007. For nearly three years, he served as a rifleman in 1st Battalion, 75th Ranger Regiment. Ranger Dimock represented everything right with America. He was an incredibly talented young man, who volunteered to serve his nation in a time of war and ultimately gave his life in support of her cause, said Lt. Col. Mike Foster, the 1st Ranger Battalion Commander. His loss is felt across the entire battalion and our thoughts and prayers are with the Dimock family. He was on his second deployment to Afghanistan. Previously he conducted a deployment to Iraq. Spc. Dimock was a warrior who chose a higher calling and deployed three times in support of the Nation. Joseph remains a hero to our Nation, the Army, and his family, said Col. Michael Kurilla, Commander of the 75th Ranger Regiment. Dimock is survived by his parents, Joseph and Ellen Dimock and brothers Louis and Michael Dimock of Wildwood, Ill.

with apologies for resurrecting such an old thread ... http://www.scouting.org/relationships/05-961/onmyhonor.pdf is now a broken link, and the sheet music appears to have vanished off the national website. On my Honor doesn't even appear in the list of recommended hymns in their Scout Sunday resources any more. Does someone have this PDF that could be shared, or a location to find it online, or any source for the sheet music (preferably with 4-part harmony)? Thanks!

Bumping this thread up again as we approach Memorial Day. I have had a couple of good conversations with a District professionals from a few councils, a national executive staff member, and with National President John Gottschalk this year -- I keep on pushing for a top down renewal of this unit recognition, but until it comes, grass roots is doing quite nicely. Here's hoping no one has any need for this recognition, but I know otherwise. My offer still stands -- I will help anyone who needs it, any way I can, and I will travel as my schedule allows to attend whatever you do.

I have one of those somewhere in my box of treasures ... Calico is exactly right -- What you have is an Order of the Arrow 75th Anniversary Service Award. There were some requirements for Arrowmen to earn this award, and it was available for one year only -- 1990. The program was later developed into a more-or-less annual service award. Because the award is reasonably recent in Scouting history, there were a lot of them made, but it is difficult to find someone who is willing to part with theirs, so when sold they can get a fair price for something that is not even close to being an antique, especially if the condition is good. I don't see any on ebay just now, but they show up not altogether infrequently.

Owl, How in the world did I miss this post? I'm no regular poster (twenty-something posts in ~6 years!) but I keep pretty close track on most everything in the Scouting world related to Gold Stars on my continuing crusade to get this unit recognition the awareness and support infrastructure it deserves. Thanks so much for your work on this cause! As mentioned somewhere in the previous thread on this topic, I also have a ceremony that we did some years ago -- and very happy to share, and help anyone else that finds themselves in need ... Just let me know!

Have received information matching the points Bacchus gave: The math and science bronze is a new 6th bronze award -- there are no changes to other existing Venturing awards. It is the first BSA advancement program designed and developed entirely by youth. Requirements are consistent with other bronze awards. The award goes beyond personal skill in the subject areas to include service requirements to other people, related to the subject area (such as tutoring or mentoring). No specific timeline was given for rollout -- just "soon". No draft of requirements was given.

Much to my surprise, one of my young men asked me recently why we always go to summer camp in the same location, and what it would take to go someplace different. My smile stretched so wide it might have come off my face on the edges! Now they want guidance and resources (and I want them to have a positive experience!) Being the generation they are, they expect to go online in 10 minutes and find a unified listing of every summer camp within 500 miles with camper reviews and ratings, lists of MB's and programs offered, and be able to make a choice for summer of 2010 all in the space of one meeting. I'm looking, along with them, but I'm not quickly finding any resources like that. Any guidance?

This one shouldn't be that hard ... from the 2008 requirements for the rank of Eagle: "5. While a Life Scout, plan, develop, and give leadership to others in a service project helpful to any religious institution, any school, or your community. (The project should benefit an organization other than Boy Scouting.) The proj�ect plan must be approved by the organization benefiting from the effort, your Scoutmaster and troop committee, and the council or district before you start. You must use the Eagle Scout Leadership Service Project Workbook, BSA publication No. 18-927, in meeting this requirement. " separately from the project workbook: "Approval Signatures for Project Plan Project plans were reviewed and approved by: ________________________________________ Religious institution, school, or community representative Date ________________________________________ Scoutmaster/Coach/Advisor Date ________________________________________ Unit committee member Date ________________________________________ Council or district advancement committee member Date Important Note: You may proceed with your leadership service project only when you have: 0 Completed all the above mentioned planning details 0 Shared the project plans with the appropriate persons 0 Obtained approval from the appropriate persons" If it wasn't approved in advance, then the requirement wasn't filled -- no real room for debate on this. Since one of the required approvals in advance is a district or council (not unit) advancement committee member, can't see how this got through the system. There almost has to be something missing from the story, unless this was another situation where a board decided to pass a boy that didn't fill the requirements (see previous posting to this thread above). With respect to blue jeans/uniforming, there's a lot less written into the policy and procedure on this point, and with good reason. Some conversation around the circumstances would be appropriate, and I could imagine (and even compose) solid arguments for all sides on this one, assuming different environments and circumstances. Of course the ideal situation is obvious, but part of what we're teaching/modelling (hopefully)is how to -intelligently- discern the difference between when/where/how to be flexible vs. rigid ...

wow ... so much emotion on this! Glad I'm joining late - hopefully everyone's cooled off. (and hopefully the degree to which I am apalled by this won't reignite any personal conflicts). A couple of thoughts ... 0> when the BoR approved him, it was all over -- anything past that point is just academic conversation. Pending a couple of rubber stamps, the young man is an Eagle Scout as of the date of that BoR. 1> I highly recommend a copy of the "Advancement Committee Guide Policies and Procedures" for folks who want to be involved in this -- it's available through scoutstuff, if your local council doesn't stock it ... part # is 33088 - and make sure to get the current printing (presently 2008). 2> since most unit folks won't know of the existance of this authoritative resource, and won't have a copy, there is no substitute for a> a district/council training committee that puts on a training curriculum for how Boards of Review ought to be conducted b> a Unit Commissioner who actively promotes such training to the unit c> a Unit Committee Chairman, Unit Training Chairman, and/or Unit leader who actively make sure BoR members are trained in what they are doing d> a District Advancement Committee that ensures Eagle BoR members are trained in what they are doing. 3> Computers are a good thing. If the council is requiring the new electronic Eagle application (most councils are doing this now), then the computer will automatically reject this application unless you actively put false information in the system about -when- a leadership position is held. This would likely prevent a Board from ever being convened in the first place. Quoting from the "Advancement Committee Guide Policies and Procedures": "The members of the board of review should have the following objectives in mind when they conduct the review: * To make sure the Scout has done what he was supposed to do for the rank * To see how good an experience the Scout is having in the unit * To encourage the Scout to progress further" So there you have it from an authoritative source, in clear and unambiguous terms -- The Board of Review is supposed to make sure the Scout has done what he was supposed to do. This Eagle Board of Review failed utterly in achieving this objective. Why the youth didn't fulfill the requirements, whose fault it was, and in what circumstances you should pass a youth who has not completed the requirements are not part of anything in the policy and procedure. (The closest they come to that topic is how to change requirements in special circumstances). Of course, as has been adequately pointetd out by others -- everyone else leading up to the Eagle BoR also failed this young man, and fundamentally, he failed himself -- either by knowing the requirements and not filling then, or by not knowing them. The real pity of this is that in their attempt to not "penalize the Scout", they did the greatest disservice to the very one they were trying to protect. By sending the clear message if it's at all possible to put the blame on someone else, then you won't be held responsible for your own part in a comprehensive failure -- (sounds like the basis for about 300 different episodes of Law & Order, yes?) -- we've taught this youth the opposite of how we'd like him to conduct himself in the real world. Arguably, we'd have done better to teach him nothing at all, than to give him this lesson. At the ludicrous extreme, one wonders how this board would treat a young man who was applying for Eagle Scout without ever having read any requirements, or even registering with BSA -- but vigorously defending that none of that was his fault. His parents wouldn't let him sign up, no one every told him where to read the requirements, the leaders didn't want him, etc. ad nauseum. Would the Board "penalize the boy" for this? If not, where between the above case, and my ludicrously extreme example would they draw the line? (and why?) There is one additional approval point after the Board of Review ... The Council Scout Executive has to sign off "I certify that all procedures, as outlined in Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures, have been followed. I approve this application." I've never heard of a Scout exec not signing -- but to my view, there's a legitimate case here that says the policy and procedures were not followed. There'd be fireworks everywhere if he bounced the application. For starters, the policy and procedure only acknowledges two possible sources of appeal, and this contingency is -not- addressed there ... but for my part I'd love to see a Scout exec take this approval seriously enough to think through this case before just rubber-stamping the application.

In Scouting Magazine this month (p.24) there is a brief blurb about "The Scout Executive's Active Outdoor Challenge." It reads: "Requirements for the patch are simple: 'Get your Scouts outside and active for 12 monthly activities.' Any active outdoor activity qualifies, for eample: sailing kayaking, climbing, backpacking, orienteering, rollerblading, caving, sledding -- anything that gets Scouts outside and moving. Service projects, camporees, and summer camp do not qualify. When a pack, troop, or crew completes 12 consecutive monthly activities and a leader turns in a form, each youth receives a patch." I've searched for program details, or the form, or any resources online and come up almost completely empty. Anyone done this? or have a pointer to additional resources?

finally moving towards getting online ... some resources, including a sample ceremony script are now posted at http://home.comcast.net/~ilduncans Please let me know if there is anything we can do to assist ...

Thanks, Owl! I was out camping this weekend and thought I should have done this before I left, so was happy to see that you were a step ahead of me. On a related note, with the assistance of key professionals in my council, have made some headway in getting this some visibility with the national office ... *cheer* ... a few more years of patient persistence, and who knows what may happen?

Certainly the loss of a Scouter is no less. (hopefully nothing above was interpreted as suggesting that!) From my research in fall of 2003, the interpretation of "member" was any current or former registered youth or adult. Unfortunately, at this time, there is no further clarification in any BSA publication. I have written a proposal to clarify and revitalize this unit recognition, and worked through my local council professional staff to get it on the table with the National Executive Staff, but of course the national council does not turn these sorts of ideas around very quickly.

fascinating thread ... You've managed to get all the current ones I know of ... only one comment on the final list ... #43 -- Skipper's key -- is actually just a device (Sea Scout) on the Scouters Key (#11) -- the green and white knot is common with the Scoutmaster's Key, Coach's Key (Varsity), Advisor's Key (Venturing), Commissioner's Key, District Key, Cubmaster's Key (prior to 1979), Advisor's Key (Exploring, back when ...) On the question of Pack Trainer -- stay tuned. If not already in process in your council, there is presently being rolled out a new position "Unit Trainer", expanding this concept to Troops/Crews/Teams/Ships ... (new position code on applications, etc.). I wonder if the Pack trainer square knot is going to vanish as quickly as it appeared ...

renewing this thread -- as relevant as ever. I have found two units in my home district that have former members fallen in Iraq, and another in Virginia. My Wood Badge and NLS experiences this year have both afforded me opportunities to carry on my word-of-mouth crusade to raise awareness of this recognition in broader and broader circles, and I am aware that others are starting to pick up the cause as well. Many thanks to anyone who has helped to raise awareness. I have worked with my local council professional staff to draft a proposal to the national office to revitalize this unit recognition. Theoretically, this should get submitted, later this month. My offer still stands for anyone who needs -- all of my research and original material are available for the asking, and I would happilly provide any support required for your own ceremony.

No -- 11117 is the Memorial Gold Stars. You can validate that this part number is -not- the veteran unit emblem online, as the veteran unit emblems have a different part number depending on the number of years, listed in the table below. Also -- the veteran unit emblem is a unit recognition based on continuious years of a unit's charter. These are a unit flag decoration equivalent to the bar worn on the left sleeve, just below the unit number -- and nothing whatsoever to do with military veterans. Part # - Number of years 11115 - 80 11116 - 30 11118 - 40 11119 - 50 11120 - 75 11121 - 70 11122 - 60 11123 - 65 11124 - 25 11125 - 5 11126 - 45 11127 - 20 11128 - 10 11129 - 15 11130 - 35 11131 - 55 11139 - 85 11146 - 90 11147 - 95

I am deeply sorry to hear that you have occasion to order these, but equally happy that you are taking the time to do so. The gold stars have a part number given in the insignia guide (No. 11117) which is orderable through the national supply division. They are sold as a pair -- ordering one part gets you a matched pair of stars. They are fairly cheap -- you might pay as much in shipping as you do for the actual stars. The part# is -not- currently orderable online, but if you call them, you can order them -- it is -not- a restricted part number. Have you given any thought to holding a ceremony for adding these on your flag?

Thanks so much for renewing this thread! I will renew my offer as well: For anyone who is interested, I will happily share the ceremony we created and used, and you are free to adapt to your own taste. Further I would happily offer any assistance I can to help anyone prepare for their own event.

Fascinating. After the lack of history concerning the gold stars, I am very curious to know what can be uncovered on the history of these blue stars -- how far back do they date, and were they ever officially sanctioned special flag decorations? (anyone have an insignia guide from the late 40's?). That aside, I am definitely in agreement, there is no current provision in the Insignia Guide allowing for this decoration on unit flags. I'm a touch hesitant to remove something like that, wondering who will suddenly appear from the woodwork, offended, but if someone were to show up in that fashion, you'd suddenly have a lot more information than you have now! By the same measure, we might too quickly destroy the last bit of traceable history of some long-forgotten tradition. You mention that there are other units in your area that also have these blue stars -- Before taking any steps, I'd be happy for one or more troop historians to collect and post some data on local units from your area that have blue stars, along with any other data they can collect about when/why/where they came from.

Ed, Unfortunately, having spent uncounted hours on the phone with three separate divisions in the national office (Boy Scouts, Museum, and Supply Division), and several years since looking for any clues from antiquity, I can state with reasonable certainty that there is no further clarification on the requirements, nor any form to submit, nor approval given, nor records kept, nor recognition ceremony provided. In the case of my brother in law, he was a Cub Scout throughout, and a Boy Scout for about a year, and left the program as a Tenderfoot. Both unit flags now carry a gold star in his memory. When discussed in the context of why have a unit recognition, and why carry the recognition forever on the unit flag, we are similarly left to draw our own conclusions ... I offer my perspective for your consideration, with the humble acknowledgement that I do -not- speak for the BSA on this (or any other) topic. In general the reason for an awards ceremony of any kind is three-fold: 1> to recognize the individual or organizational achievement 2> to acknowledge the contributions of all others who helped the recipient accomplish the achievement, and 3> to inspire others to follow in the example set If we apply those to the specifics of this situation, the objectives are the same. The underlying value of "Duty to Country" has been fulfilled, and that is deserving of far more than passing note. Your fallen scout deserves to be upheld as an example for this supreme sacrifice. The family needs to know that with all politicking and public opinion aside, Scouting acknowledges, values, and remembers that we will forever carry with us a gold star by which to remember the last full measure of devotion by one of our own, to one of the core values of our movement. Your past leaders should be acknowledged for their contribution to building up a young man who was ready and willing to make that sacrifice. Your current leaders need to be reminded and inspired that these while we are not a para-military organization, and each of us is called to do our duty to country in a different way, living out this duty is one of the values that we hold most dear. We need to instill that value in all of our youth. Your current Scouts need to stand a little taller during a flag ceremony, and be reminded that the Pledge of Allegiance is far more that just the dividing line between "before the meeting" and "during the meeting". They need to be encouraged to ponder the depth of responsibility laid on us, who are left living in the wake of such sacrifice -- best captured in my opinion, by Abraham Lincoln in the closing lines of the Gettysburg Address. Here are a couple of practical recommendations: 1> Communicate with the family, and let them know what you would like to do, and why. For certain you don't want to do -anything- that would go against their wishes. 2> Communicate with your Council Scout Executive and your district professional(s), and let them know what you're planning and why. Given the nature of the ceremony (and rarity), there is a good chance they will want to be directly involved in your event out of respect for the memory of your fallen Scout. Given the downturn in public opinion with regard to this war, and the advent of radical groups who show up at military funerals to express their freedom of speech in a most derogatory fashion, there is an equally substantial chance that they will want to closely monitor public relations around your event, in order to make sure that BSA name and image are appropriately portrayed. 3> Involve the Cub Scout Pack in the same ceremony, if applicable 4> order the stars from the supply division far in advance. These are a very infrequently ordered part #, and speaking from personal experience, I had trouble getting my order filled. (ordered one pair for the troop, no problem ordered a second pair for the pack, and got two completely different stars. Took a week to sort out and get what we needed). 5> Please let me know when and where and what you are planning. I will happily share my materials from the ceremony commemorating my brother-in-law, which you may use or not at your own discretion. My wife and I would like very much to attend your ceremony (regardless of anything else). Yours in Scouting, --John

Renewing this topic -- as relevant as ever. If you are aware of former scouts who have fallen in the service of our country, please post. I will happily share what I have.

One easy part, and one hard part to this question. Pretty straight forward on the decorum aspect of this question ... a non-citizen should properly do the same thing Americans do when the Canadian national anthem is played at a baseball or hockey game, or when the colors of any nation are presented in a flag ceremony -- the same thing everyone does during the gold medal ceremony at the Olympics (no matter which nation's anthem is played) -- and the same thing anyone should do when a foreign head of state enters the room -- (and the same thing you'll be pressured to do if you happen to visit Oklahoma, and they happen to sing the title theme of the Rogers & Hammerstein musical by the same name ... go figure!): You stand up, not as a show of allegiance, but of respect. This is well-established decorum the world over, giving us a moment of commonality where we can respect the things they respect, and they can respect the things we respect. In the US military (and most others, though I can't attest to all), foreign heads of state are entitled to a salute. (Yes, that means the Pope is entitled to a salute, regardless of your religious persuasion). In Flag ceremonies, it is absolutely appropriate that the respective colors be presented or raised together, although the home nation is displayed to the right, in the position of honor. Similarly, when national anthems are to be sung, the home nation is sung first. Now the harder part ... The leadership position, and more generally, the idea of leading a flag ceremony changes things just a bit, and I confess I am torn just a bit on the topic. On the one hand, my opinion is that the youth has accepted a leadership position in an organization that is honor-bound to do their duty to _this_ country, not the country of your choice. In my opinion, for someone who has actively chosen to register with the BSA, when we recite the Scout Oath (or equavalent for Venturing or Cub Scouts), "God and my country" refers exclusively to the USA. Even non-citizen residents have some duties to the USA [our laws, our taxes, etc.], and it is to these duties that the Oath refers. This would obviously be different for a visitor representing another Scout organization outside the BSA. On the other hand, the Pledge of Allegiance goes well beyond the Scout Oath. This is, in fact, an oath of allegiance to a foreign government (*poof* -- your passport, and citizenship in your home country is now invalid). There is some precedent for leading such things as part of a ceremony without loss of citizenship. (At a baseball game, the same person typically sings both national anthems, e.g., and this doesn't amount to changing one's citizenship -- only leading a ceremony. Likewise for a military detail leading a flag ceremony with the colors of more than one nation). If the youth is comfortable leading the Pledge of Allegiance, then I'd suggest writing a letter to his embassy to inquire on this situation. Frankly. I'd be interested to know what they had to say. The path of least resistance I think is clear, however, and I very much like the approach Eamonn described as a reasonable compromise -- handled without calling undue attention, and without creating an international incident. At least for the duration of the flag ceremony, someone else can be the leader. In any case, the situation deserves to be treated with appropriate discretion. For my part, I would certainly want to err on the side of welcoming our international guests, while respecting commonly understood decorum. If the circumstances create discomfort, then avoiding the circumstances is the path of least resistance, as Eamonn described, or otherwise.

Thanks so much for our interest in this topic! From my research and related activities a couple of years ago, (cf. http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=39406), I can tell you two things for sure: First, there is at least one Boy Scout Troop and one Cub Scout Pack in Boulder Dam Area Council that bear one gold star in memory of Cpl. Matthew Commons, who was killed in action in Afghanistan, 04-March-2002. Second, the number of people on the face of the earth who have have ever heard of, let alone seen this award is very small. Those who have were almost exclusively scouts in the late 40's and early 50's and the stars honored WWII KIAs. I never found anyone who had seen one from Korea or Vietnam. I touched base with National in four seaparte divisions. The folks I worked with from the Boy Scout and Boy's Life divisons were completely unaware of the unit recognition. The Museum was also unaware, and found nothing in talking with some of their older volunteers. The Supply Division had the -only- hit -- they were able to verify that since putting their systems on computer, they had sold one (only one!) pair of gold stars. So we developed our own ceremony, carried out as part of a Veterans' Day Observence with the two units and the Scout Executive from that council. I would love to see this unit recognition used by all those units who have former member that they should remember. For what it's worth, I am happy to share the ceremony we ultimately did, (and a few drafts we went through), with anyone who is interested. My wife and I will do whatever we can to help anyone in putting on such a ceremony. (Just reply to this thread)

Thanks so much for reviving this old thread up again! This is a dark corner of the insignia guide that has been lost too long. I am certain with the number of fallen in the last few years, that there are -many- units out there with former members who should be remembered, but no efficient way I know to line up the DoD records with home towns and unit numbers. For what it's worth, I am happy to share the ceremony we ultimately did, (and a few drafts we went through), with anyone who is interested. My wife and I will do whatever we can to help anyone in putting on such a ceremony. (Just reply to this thread)